Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[Dreamer]

2 points i would like to make to the OP, sorry to state the obvious lol

LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

It's perfectly within the bounds to have a DRG without the pet.

[Chiz]

Wow, you really don't understand the concept of "critical thinking" do you. Try actually analyzing the words you read, and uncovering a recurring theme. As I said, those were just SUGGESTIONS. Hell, I even said I don't really know what EXACTLY should be done. What I do know, however, is that I don't like extensive cross-overs, and neither do a lot of other ppl.

I understand the concept quite well, which has allowed me to easily dissect and refute your weak arguments....arguments which ultimately contradict what you think you want but actually support what you're arguing against. All your arguments boil down to semantics about ability names and origin, which in itself, is quite sad. Surely you played XI enough to realize both PLD and DRK did the unthinkable by casting white and black magics with....*gasp* MP......

Sarcasm aside, the Armoury System currently accomplishes what it sets out to do, it allows enough flexibility so that any single Class is not pidgeon-holed or gimped to the point it is completely useless in some situations but also ensures they are unable to take on roles it was not meant to fill for extended periods of time.

THM or CON can no longer tank the hardest content in the game efficiently due to the MP changes and a few nerfs to key abilities. GLA can not be a tank and deal the highest DPS, or be a main healer. DD classes can spec to either DD effectively, or tank, but not both simultaneously....and they can never be main healers. But all classes can use other abilities to cater to specific party needs thereby making the group dynamic stronger. This sounds like its working as intended.

I would prefer for EACH job to have it's own form of "cure," (to use the term, generally, rather than literally), but that's not the only way to solve the issue. I just don't know what is the right way w/o diablo w/e you were saying... Because for one, the armory system only opens up that option if we're willing to lvl 10 different jobs (exaggerating a bit, but HOPEFULLY you get the point). What if someone absolutely despises thm and cnj, or mrd, or pgl, or any other number of jobs...What if all they like is ARC, for example (don't think it has any of it's own cures)? Are you proposing that the only way for ppl to solo on this game should be accomplished by *forcing them to lvl jobs they don't even like?

Again, if you think you can get by leveling 1 class that's your prerogative. I don't see how this will be any different however from that 75DRG/30WAR or 75WHM/17BLM that wonders why he can't get a party.

You said you want every class to have the same capabilities, like being able to heal in their own way, but the Job system you're arguing for all but guarantees this *WON'T* happen.

With a job/sub job system, or anything other than the armory system, SE would be a lot more efficient w/ maintaining balance. It's much easier to evaluate *one* thing, individually, than an infinite number of combinations across an array of some-odd number of classes. Plz try to think outside of *your* little box every now and then. Consider other ppl's feelings, and not just your own -I beg of you. Nothing gets accomplished w/ close-minded thinking. Just because it's the way the game began, doesn't mean it's what the game should *continue.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people will argue against a system that actually gives them what they want while advocating a system that's largely an unknown commodity that will most likely dash any hopes of what they're lobbying for. The Armoury System already gives you what you want, in the time you've spent arguing against it you could've easily leveled 2-3 classes to 20 and started enjoying/enriching your character.

It seems however you have very limited experience with the game in general. I would say try to get every class to 20 before you fully endorse or condemn the Armoury system. Maybe it'll get you to think outside your "little box" and expand your horizons by coaxing you into trying some classes and abilities you might have felt were out of your comfort zone....

[AlphaDragoon]

LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

Joke post?

But seriously, That pet-using abomination in FFXI isn't the definition of a Dragoon. Spear + armor + jumping high into the air, dropping down at terminal velocity and stabbing people with said spear = Dragoon.

Basically, Kain Highwind.

[Chiz]

Exactly right. Actually, it's more sad than funny. :/
Armoury system while theoretically sounds fun and versatile, is quite short sighted.
There are far too many issues with it to count.
I think that's given, with SE's plans for drastic changes and overhaul of battle/class system and introduction of Jobs.
It just never ceases to amaze me how mind-boggling it is that some people are still defending this Abomination System when SE is trying to fix the damn thing and overhaul the whole system from the ground up and introduce a new Job system on top of that.

Likewise, it never ceases to amaze me how people are willing to advocate change toward a new system that is worst than the existing system in just about every way.

I get the main complaints about the Armoury system, its usually from people who want their class to have their 1 special thing without being encroached upon by others who can spec it on another class, or those who don't want to feel like they have to level every class to 50 to ungimp themselves. And I get all that.

But there's very easy fixes to accomplish this balance/class/job flavor within the existing contruct of the Class system. Just lock more abilities to main Class only. Limit how many abilities you can use from other classes. Hell, even lock crossover abilities to 1/2 of main class. Then you'd ultimately have the XI job system but you would have ALL jobs to choose from for any class, not just 1.

Given how many XI fans seem to want the Job/subjob system, yourself included, I find it hard to believe you don't see this as a better alternative to a strict Job system that limits its abilities to a subset of a single Class. XI's subjob system was ground-breaking for an MMO, but everyone knows it still had its limitations as the number of useful subjobs were extremely limited.

You mock the Armoury system as an abomination that limits actual choices where everyone flocks to the same abilities.....but somehow the SJ system is OK? The difference is that XIV actually allows you to choose abilities individually because they are better.....XI made that choice for you and you only get to choose which one is the best available.

[Velhart]

LNC cant be called DRG unless they add the pet.

Hah! Hmm....

FF2 - Ricard Highwind had no dragon pet.
FF3 - Dragoon had Jump abilities, no pets.
FF4 - Kain Highwind had no dragon pet.
FF5 - Dragoon class did not come with a pet.
FF6 - Pet was not required to use Dragoon like relics.
FF7 - Cid Highwind did not use a pet, he did use an airship however. :P
FF8 - Ward had Jump and a Spear, but no pet.
FF9 - Freya Crescent had no dragon pet.
FF10 - Kimahri Ronso did not use a pet.
FF11 - Hey! Dragoons do get a pet in this one!
FF13 - Fang did have a pet! It was Bahamut, used the Highwind ability.
FFT - Lancers did not have pets.
FFTA - Dragoons did not use pets.
FFTA2 - Dragoons did not use pets.
FFIV-2 - Kain still doesn't use a pet.
FFXII:RW - Llyud had Jump and a Spear, but no pet.
Chocobo Dungeon: Can unlock Dragoon, but it is the pet itself using Dragoon abilities! Haha

So it looks like only one out of this list actually had a pet. >_>

[Albio]

This used to be the case somewhat prior to 1.18 but one simple change with the removal of the Stamina bar, along with the increase in MP cost for heals changed all of this. The Stamina bar removal was the biggest change because most abilities from other classes just weren't used often due to the fact most people were usually in a Stamina-deficit while building TP with attacks and WS'ing. The new system with no Stamina concern changes all of this and rewards you instead for popping abilities on CD as much as possible.

The cost of MP change has also forced players, particularly melee-types, to rethink their survival strategies. You can't just spam C3 or S3 endlessly as a GLA anymore to keep yourself up and hold hate, you really have to save those for when it counts. But you have other options like Featherfoot, Foresight, Decoy, Diversion, Second Wind, Defender etc. to help keep you alive and reduce damage taken. All of these abilities except for maybe Decoy/Diversion can be obtained quickly at a relatively low level, so if you want to tank there's really no reason not to have them.

Anyways, point is that a few changes to specific abilities or gameplay mechanics can have a profound impact on defining class-roles and capabilities. These are the kinds of tweaks I would advocate in an effort to fix the current system rather than the much ado about nothing approach the dev team is currently taking. I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're just going to end up with a more restrictive, less enjoyable class/job system in lieu of 6-8 months the dev team could've been working to produce actual content for the current Class system.

I understand what you're saying but still, with all those "tanking" abilities set, we're all still doing the exact same thing. Same abilities are still set, same fighting style still used. I understand that the job system also has limitations but at least when I am partying with a job system I have unique role to fulfill that no one else in the pt has, and same for my party members. Why everyone wants to be able to do everything from one job while we're on an MMORPG, where we're supposed to be interacting with other people is beyond me. If you want to solo everything, not you specifically, but anyone in general, go play a console game. I like having to rely on my fellow players for things and I like that they have to rely on me for things. It's fun and gives a sense of adventure, well the most you can get from sitting on your ass playing a game. Lol.

[Albio]

And also, I have almost all of my classes to 50 and most of my abilities go unused, the same is true for most of my friends, we all use the same few abilities from each job, SE could maybe fix this by making other abilities more useful or giving situations where we can actually use them. An example of something pointless, why is there an option to AoE nukes when you can only claim one mob at a time? That seems pretty silly to me. At this point, I think it's pretty obvious the current system isn't working, why push forward with something that is failing? That is like bashing your head into a wall, about as productive too. I think starting from the ground up is a good plan, don't know where it would lead, but we all see where this system has led so let's try something new. My last complaint, I am ranting, are the names, I know it's just semantics and seems trivial, but I like Final Fantasy lore and so enjoy the traditional names like Black Mage or Paladin. And also, Thaumaturge is a religious official type person, why is THM in the game so dark and twisted? It's things like this that annoy me to no end. I am gonna shut up now, have a nice day everyone, thank you for taking the time to read my craziness!

[Tsuga]

I understand the concept quite well, which has allowed me to easily dissect and refute your weak arguments....arguments which ultimately contradict what you think you want but actually support what you're arguing against. All your arguments boil down to semantics about ability names and origin, which in itself, is quite sad. Surely you played XI enough to realize both PLD and DRK did the unthinkable by casting white and black magics with....*gasp* MP......

Sarcasm aside, the Armoury System currently accomplishes what it sets out to do, it allows enough flexibility so that any single Class is not pidgeon-holed or gimped to the point it is completely useless in some situations but also ensures they are unable to take on roles it was not meant to fill for extended periods of time.

THM or CON can no longer tank the hardest content in the game efficiently due to the MP changes and a few nerfs to key abilities. GLA can not be a tank and deal the highest DPS, or be a main healer. DD classes can spec to either DD effectively, or tank, but not both simultaneously....and they can never be main healers. But all classes can use other abilities to cater to specific party needs thereby making the group dynamic stronger. This sounds like its working as intended.


Again, if you think you can get by leveling 1 class that's your prerogative. I don't see how this will be any different however from that 75DRG/30WAR or 75WHM/17BLM that wonders why he can't get a party.

You said you want every class to have the same capabilities, like being able to heal in their own way, but the Job system you're arguing for all but guarantees this *WON'T* happen.


It never ceases to amaze me how some people will argue against a system that actually gives them what they want while advocating a system that's largely an unknown commodity that will most likely dash any hopes of what they're lobbying for. The Armoury System already gives you what you want, in the time you've spent arguing against it you could've easily leveled 2-3 classes to 20 and started enjoying/enriching your character.

It seems however you have very limited experience with the game in general. I would say try to get every class to 20 before you fully endorse or condemn the Armoury system. Maybe it'll get you to think outside your "little box" and expand your horizons by coaxing you into trying some classes and abilities you might have felt were out of your comfort zone....

Just had to say that I <3 this post.

While I don't think that the armoury system is perfect, it is getting there. The system really doesn't have any glaring imbalances anymore. It forces people to think about their build/skill setup more than a job system would, but I would much rather have that than be forced into a class based role at all times. I like that on my CON alone, I have multiple builds that I can switch between just by using a couple of macros, and I couldn't do that without the armoury system.

I understand what you're saying but still, with all those "tanking" abilities set, we're all still doing the exact same thing. Same abilities are still set, same fighting style still used. I understand that the job system also has limitations but at least when I am partying with a job system I have unique role to fulfill that no one else in the pt has, and same for my party members. Why everyone wants to be able to do everything from one job while we're on an MMORPG, where we're supposed to be interacting with other people is beyond me. If you want to solo everything, not you specifically, but anyone in general, go play a console game. I like having to rely on my fellow players for things and I like that they have to rely on me for things. It's fun and gives a sense of adventure, well the most you can get from sitting on your ass playing a game. Lol.

You can still fulfill specific roles while in party with the armoury system. It's not like the skills that you are allowed to equip are limitless, you pretty much have to force yourself into some sort of comprehensible skillset if you want the skills to work together well. The great thing about the armoury system is that as long as you have put the work into multiple classes, you have more options for alternate builds on one class. You aren't pigeon-holed into a corner where you can ONLY have abilities from one or two classes, but you aren't given the space to have enough abilities that you're godly, either.

[Khal_Drogo]

I understand the concept quite well, which has allowed me to easily dissect and refute your weak arguments....arguments which ultimately contradict what you think you want but actually support what you're arguing against. All your arguments boil down to semantics about ability names and origin, which in itself, is quite sad. Surely you played XI enough to realize both PLD and DRK did the unthinkable by casting white and black magics with....*gasp* MP......

First of all, please stop assuming to understand *EXACTLY* what I want, since I [thought] I made it very clear, that even I don't KNOW exactly what I want.[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] And for your information, aside from crafts, I WAS planning to lvl every single job well past 20, until I realized that every *smart* player on the server was going to join me. Do you know what was great about the job system? You only had to pick TWO. I don't want ppl to be able to look at my character, see what abilities I use, and say "oh, that DOES work better, I'll just equip them." [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] If you're ALLOWED to equip a handful of abilities from every single job, who in their right mind WOULDN'T do it. Unlike you, I consider *other ppl's feelings and concerns as well. I wouldn't want to come off as some selfish, ignorant ***.

Secondly, I have no problem w/ PLD and DRK using mp since that's what they were *DESIGNED to do from the beginning of the game. They had "comparable" amounts of mp to their mage counterparts (when lined up against /mage jobs on normal DDs). What your asking for is that all jobs, basically, be turned into /mage. Maybe you enjoy the idea of playing a game where every player is a carbon copy of you w/ just different favorites, but to me...that's about the most awful experience imaginable.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

Look at THF w/ Blood Bolts via crossbow. Do you know how much fun it was to do dmg, and cure myself, at the same time? Do you know how much fun it would have been to have to spam myself in cures w/ gimp mp? [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

So, does this mean that I want every DD to have Blood Bolts and a crossbow? NO...SO DON'T ASSUME THAT'S WHAT THAT STATEMENT MEANS -[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

THM or CON can no longer tank the hardest content in the game efficiently due to the MP changes and a few nerfs to key abilities. GLA can not be a tank and deal the highest DPS, or be a main healer. DD classes can spec to either DD effectively, or tank, but not both simultaneously....and they can never be main healers. But all classes can use other abilities to cater to specific party needs thereby making the group dynamic stronger. This sounds like its working as intended.

I don't really care about "group effectiveness," and neither do a bunch of other players. Once again, you're only considering your own feelings every time you post. Many ppl want to be able to solo, and they may not want to have to lvl every single job, just to do it effectively. Your system REQUIRES them to do so. Let me TRY to explain why [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]. SE knows that everyone is able to draw on the abilities of other jobs/classes, SO NO SINGLE job or class (in and of itself; no "cross-class" melding going on) will EVER be allowed to perform at the SAME "level" as a class/job that capitalizes on the current system. Why? Because, if said job ever decided to capitalize on the "flexibility" of the class system, it would be GROSSLY overpowered. What does this mean for the "casual" player (which I am not)? It means you will either find a way to level numerous jobs in your spare time, or be gimp -PLAIN and SIMPLE.[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

You said you want every class to have the same capabilities, like being able to heal in their own way, but the Job system you're arguing for all but guarantees this *WON'T* happen.


It never ceases to amaze me how some people will argue against a system that actually gives them what they want while advocating a system that's largely an unknown commodity that will most likely dash any hopes of what they're lobbying for. The Armoury System already gives you what you want, in the time you've spent arguing against it you could've easily leveled 2-3 classes to 20 and started enjoying/enriching your character.

Maybe it'll get you to think outside your "little box" and expand your horizons by coaxing you into trying some classes and abilities you might have felt were out of your comfort zone....

When I said, capabilities, I meant "solo'n w/o curing" (if they're a normal melee). I thought I made that clear by saying "I don't know exactly what I want," and then throwing out a couple of *** ideas. I guess that led you to misinterpret what I actually meant.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

[Xianghua]

/sigh so many pointless things.

First off just because you change the name doesn't change what the job does. after all its just words, An Archer/Ranger? same thing. Pug/Mnk? Hume/Hyur? same thing. if you seriously think changing the name will make any impact you're only kidding yourself.

XIs system compared to XIV is horrible. while XI you could change you sub it only change your play-style slightly.
Rng/war Rng/nin Rng/sam all were DD's. Subs just made you either more or less agressive and effective. In the end you were still just a DD. only very few jobs could solo effectively in XI without needing insane gear. brd or whm? you were not killing anything that mattered solo. XIV system allows you to do many things that you would not be able to in XI or any game that allows you only 1 job.

For an Example I'll use Archer and Ranger
for Ranger to use these abilities: Protect/Defender/Berserk/Cure/Chakra(Second wind)/Ustusumi/Meditate
I would need to use 5 Sub jobs which would be impossible.

For archer i could do so Easily and still have what I need to kill effectively.


Now with the whole "I'm to lazy to level up all the jobs, So I should be able to be equally effective without doing so crowd"
Suck it up. or leave simple as that. It doesn't take long or much effort to level jobs up to get the Tier 1 abilities. You don't need all jobs to 50 to have the good abilities. and once again you had to do the same thing in XI. The only difference? this game you can use all the jobs at once.


There is still very little info about the whole job system. so seriously stop asking for them to change things before we even know everything about it just because it wasn't like XI or some other game you played. After how do you know you will hate or like it unless you at least try it.

And about the solo stuff. this is a MMORPG. massive MULTIPLAYER online role-playing game. doing things in group is the whole point of the game if you don't care about that then you are playing the wrong game. most people play MMOs for the sole reason to guess what? play in groups with other people so of course Group effectiveness > Solo play. are you seriously that stupid that you think an online multiplayer game should be based on solo activities over group ones.