Why not abolish the Class system entirely in favor of Jobs? [@ Devs]

[Chiz]

This thread keeps bouncing around.



That's a Reinheart translation from Famitsu. This is the closest thing we know to how it's going to be. Anything more is baseless assumption.

No we have far better source material than that which gives more details than that watered-down quote from Yoshida, quoting relevant portion in its entirety for those who may not have seen it before:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...995#post138995

Armoury System

•Classes

Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class.

•Jobs

The job system - that series-defining trademark - will be implemented in FINAL FANTASY XIV (details such as specific jobs TBA). Quests to unlock each job will become available once you have reached a certain rank in the corresponding class.

Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.

In practice, players will find the existing classes effective when playing solo or in certain party setups. Jobs, however, will shine in party situations where specific skill sets are demanded. Now, you didn’t hear this from me, but there are also rumors circulating that quests for obtaining job-exclusive equipment are also in the pipes.

We at the development team are currently hard at work on the job system, and expect to have details to share with you soon.

Most relevant portions bolded for emphasis. From that its pretty easy to surmise that Classes = Armoury system, jack-of-all-trades master of none. Armoury system will be nerfed and class-defining abilities locked to main class/job only. Jobs will be party specialists that give you most pre-req Class abilities along with role-specific Job abilities on top of them, but none of the mix and match flexibility of the Armoury system.

I still find it amazing though how advocates of a Job/subjob system somehow think this is a better alternative than what we already have with the Armoury system. Why laud and lobby for a single Job or subjob when we already have 7 jobs with 6 subjobs currently? Honestly if SE just changed the names from Class to Job and each of the various Classes to their classic/canonical FF names would there be anything left to whine about?

[AJ_Anyia]

Honestly if SE just changed the names from Class to Job and each of the various Classes to their classic/canonical FF names would there be anything left to whine about?

Nope. And with what you just posted should end it. If that's the foundation and how SE is going with things, cool. But the whole abolishment of the Class Armory System is too extreme since that would involve scrapping every Class Guild and restructuring the cities around them, the story lines since they're already weaved into them, and not to mention we'd all be reset back to square one making all of the progress that was set with the classes at hand now moot and pointless. It's pretty much a death sentence. And I think it's more than just a name, with the way things are now, people can't control or predict what a person has equipped when they're invited to a party. With jobs it'd be cut and clear for the most part with a standard set of stuff. I smell fear behind all of it, and I don't blame them since trying something new from something you're not normally used to can be scary. But it's just a game for christ's sake, whether classes leave or stay won't dictate who eats or has a job. (lawl to what I just did there) Chiz's qoute says we'll have both, so both it shall be. So now the concern isn't the battle systems anymore, it'll be preventing the community in the game dividing in two like here over this. People getting booted from Dungeon Raids or even slaughter runs through Camp Riversmeet, that's more my primary concern now. It'll be whole FFXI thing of, "All DD sub NIN or GTFO" all over again. Granted it was more prevalent in some servers than others, but in my first server it was heavy.

[Khal_Drogo]

Honestly if SE just changed the names from Class to Job and each of the various Classes to their classic/canonical FF names would there be anything left to whine about?

Ya, the fact that, with "6 'sub' jobs," as you call them, people no longer have the option to play the way they want. They are, practically, FORCED to level every job. Have you tried getting through a behest (at the recommended rank) WITHOUT having a cure spell assigned to your DD *MELEE* job? I had to do it on my brother's character because he hates leveling mages. Wanna know what happens? You die...at least once. So, unless you treat the behest like some of the worst aspects of XI (having to kite and run from monsters to beat them, constantly), you're pretty much condemned to a life of endless hp returns -or always party w/ ppl for everything. That sounds like a spectacular idea, doesn't it!

With a restricted number of sub jobs, SE would have a much less complex system to manage and maintain. This means that the likelihood of an Rank 25 Archer actually being able to enjoy the game without using his...mp? -would drastically increase.

[AJ_Anyia]

Ya, the fact that, with "6 'sub' jobs," as you call them, people no longer have the option to play the way they want. They are, practically, FORCED to level every job. Have you tried getting through a behest (at the recommended rank) WITHOUT having a cure spell assigned to your DD *MELEE* job? I had to do it on my brother's character because he hates leveling mages. Wanna know what happens? You die...at least once. So, unless you treat the behest like some of the worst aspects of XI (having to kite and run from monsters to beat them, constantly), you're pretty much condemned to a life of endless hp returns -or always party w/ ppl for everything. That sounds like a spectacular idea, doesn't it!

With a restricted number of sub jobs, SE would have a much less complex system to manage and maintain. This means that the likelihood of an Rank 25 Archer actually being able to enjoy the game without using his...mp? -would drastically increase.

Anyone can get 15 levels easy in three days by themselves doing leves. How do I know this? Some friends and I tried it just for the hell of it to see if it could be done. Besides, you're forced to level a lot of jobs in XI too, and Previous examples SAM, WAR, DNC, THF, DRG, DRK (they're out there) etc. And if you look on the wiki you see that most of the abilities you'd take from other jobs are relatively low level. So this whole "You get less with more, but more with less" thing really... doesn't do it for me. If casual gamers can wrap their minds around this I'm sure the rest of us can band together and do it too. lol

[Chiz]

Ya, the fact that, with "6 'sub' jobs," as you call them, people no longer have the option to play the way they want. They are, practically, FORCED to level every job.

Huh? Quite the contrary, the Armoury System gives you the option to play exactly how you like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't continue to reward you for leveling up and unlocking abilities that build your character along the way. If you can get by with being a 1-trick pony and get the job done with one R50 class "the way you want to play" that's great, but that doesn't mean you couldn't do it better if you enriched your playstyle with supplemental abilities. But isn't that the point of it, to give you the choice and options to play how you like?

Have you tried getting through a behest (at the recommended rank) WITHOUT having a cure spell assigned to your DD *MELEE* job? I had to do it on my brother's character because he hates leveling mages. Wanna know what happens? You die...at least once. So, unless you treat the behest like some of the worst aspects of XI (having to kite and run from monsters to beat them, constantly), you're pretty much condemned to a life of endless hp returns -or always party w/ ppl for everything. That sounds like a spectacular idea, doesn't it!

This argument makes no sense at all coming from someone who wants more restrictive gameplay options with a Job system over our current Armoury System. What would you do in the same Behest if you were on a Job that couldn't heal? Pop Invincible on your PLD for the full 5 minutes? No, you'd still die without someone healing you. At least the Armoury System gives those willing to put the 75 seconds to get R4 on THM or CON an option to heal themselves and "play the way they want to play."

If anything, Jobs will emphasize group play further so you will become even more reliant on someone else healing you in a party. The Armoury System on the other hand gives you the option to be more self-sufficient and flexible in both solo and group scenarios.

With a restricted number of sub jobs, SE would have a much less complex system to manage and maintain. This means that the likelihood of an Rank 25 Archer actually being able to enjoy the game without using his...mp? -would drastically increase.

Again, it sounds like you just don't want to take full advantage of the tools available to you with the Armoury System and instead prefer to restrict yourself to some myopic vision of how a class or archetype should be played. There's nothing wrong with that, there's just always going to be someone doing it better than you because they were willing to innovate and try something different. But that's what its all about isn't it? Allowing people the option to "play the way they want to play" instead of being a cookie-cutter mold of everyone else on the same job/class.

[Khal_Drogo]

Huh? Quite the contrary, the Armoury System gives you the option to play exactly how you like, but that doesn't mean it doesn't continue to reward you for leveling up and unlocking abilities that build your character along the way...This argument makes no sense at all coming from someone who wants more restrictive gameplay options with a Job system over our current Armoury System. What would you do in the same Behest if you were on a Job that couldn't heal? Pop Invincible on your PLD for the full 5 minutes? No, you'd still die without someone healing you. At least the Armoury System gives those willing to put the 75 seconds to get R4 on THM or CON an option to heal themselves and "play the way they want to play." If anything, Jobs will emphasize group play further so you will become even more reliant on someone else healing you in a party. The Armoury System on the other hand gives you the option to be more self-sufficient and flexible in both solo and group scenarios.


Again, it sounds like you just don't want to take full advantage of the tools available to you with the Armoury System and instead prefer to restrict yourself to some myopic vision of how a class or archetype should be played.

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoM is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

[Chiz]

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Yes it is a logical deconstruction of the logical fallacies presented in your example. Fact of the matter is, Jobs will NOT solve any of your complaints, they will only exacerbate them. If you don't want to heal yourself, you are going to be even more reliant on other people to heal you. At least with the Armoury System, those willing to heal themselves have the option, and for many that is a BETTER option than NO option. How is this hard to understand?

As for being gimp versions of what they could be lol...I think the only people with this complaint are the ones who don't bother to enlighten themselves by taking the time to level and obtain additional supplemental abilities from other classes. I don't think you will see any good DDs complain about the damage from 3xMultishot/Chaos Thrust/Maim/Victimize fully buffed with Raging Strike + Ferocity + Blindside + Cadence stacked on the back-end of a BR. Realistically you only need a few of those buffs at once to maximize your cooldowns but you should get the point.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoW is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

So your solution is going to be beef up damage to the point you can 1-shot every mob? Because otherwise, you will still run into the same problems you are whining about, you will need heals one way or another. The difference is, you have the CHOICE to heal yourself with the Armoury system where you have no choice with the strict archetype system you're advocating. What's more retarded? Advocating a change that does nothing to address your concerns? Or advocating the removal of a system already in place that at least gives people an option? Here's a hint, you're doing both atm.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

Uh, please don't go on, but if you do, try "taking some of your own advice."

[Khal_Drogo]

So your solution is going to be beef up damage to the point you can 1-shot every mob? Because otherwise, you will still run into the same problems you are whining about, you will need heals one way or another. The difference is, you have the CHOICE to heal yourself with the Armoury system where you have no choice with the strict archetype system you're advocating. What's more retarded? Advocating a change that does nothing to address your concerns? Or advocating the removal of a system already in place that at least gives people an option? Here's a hint, you're doing both atm.


Uh, please don't go on, but if you do, try "taking some of your own advice."

Um...once again you display a level of arrogance beyond human comprehension. I'm only choosing to post this section of your txt, because it's extremely dull reading the same stupid argument over and over and over again said in a different way, and I don't feel like going through each "assumption" and explaining why you were wrong. Did you even bother reading my suggestion? Maybe you did, but you lack imagination, so you can't see how to "fix" things w/o cure. Are you really so ignorant that you don't think SE is capable of coming up w/ innovative ways to keep classes soloing w/o "one-hitting every mob?" -By the way, that was a really unimaginative idea of the only possible way to survive w/o cures. Have you heard of the ability "Second Wind" by any chance? That's a PGL action. Have you, perhaps heard of MRD, and "Blood Bath?" And then, of course, we have "Speed Surge" and "Life Surge" on LNC; that's another interesting one. Well, LOOKY there -a couple of ways to survive w/o cure and 1-hitting mobs!? And here I thought we mere mortals were not capable of such impossible tasks!

Maybe you only lvl'd one DD, and lvl'd both the mages because you were too dense to understand that there are "other options" (just not as good of ones at this point); or maybe you forgot that they were there. Regardless of the reasons for it, your rant about how everything word uttered from your mouth, manifested on the forums is logical, now, just seems a little ridiculous. I don't know EXACTLY what needs to be done, but just because YOU can "get by" w/ the current system doesn't mean you dismiss other ppl's better ideas. I don't want to *settle. I want to get as close to "perfection" as possible.


Mages capitalize on mp and spells; and melees capitalize on TP and abilities. That's how it should be. SE could lower the recast time on things like Second Wind and Blood Bath, or they could increase the effectiveness of them, or come up w/ some kind of other stuff like "Rejuvenation" (focus your efforts on recovery, and regenerate hp over time) or "Adrenalin Rush" (Access your battle-will and recover health while dealing greater damage to target), or something...I'm just throwing random stuff out there. There's a lot they could do. I like DoW and DoM -I don't like pathetic hybrids. Keep them separate plz. I don't want to always feel like I'm a RDM in XI trying to solo easy prey mobs.

[Chiz]

Bunch of stuff only made possible through the ARMOURY SYSTEM

Thanks for proving my point, the Armoury System allows you to play how you want to play and provides a vast array of ways in which to accomplish it. The Job system will largely remove the ability to "Cure" yourself if that is not your job's main role.

But it seems you are fixated on the semantics of "Cure" when most people understand that term encompasses ANY ability that allows you to recover lost Hit Points. Who cares what its called? If you had an ability to "Spawn Dingleberry" that used "Mulch Points" to recover HP what difference would it make that its not called "Cure" and doesn't use "MP"? Would it make you feel better if melee got "Power" or "Rage" to spend on "Morale Boosts" instead?

It actually sounds like you want a Diablo-style Barb that leeches HP while dealing damage, in essence, a melee-DD that is self-sufficient on healing. Unfortunately you don't seem to understand that you're arguing against the system that gives you this kind of independence to some degree while advocating the one that will most likely take it away.

[TessaJalloh]

I can't believe you consider any of that, nonsense, logical deduction. Why don't you try considering the *source of the problems that can arise when you're not "curing yourself." The current classes are all GIMP versions of what they could be as a dedicated role. It's BECAUSE we have so many ways to "beef" up our classes w/ cures and tp cures and defensive abs, and so on, that SE won't *allow* them to be good *jobs. So, instead of being an incredibly destructive melee, that has no need for a cure because his wpn completely and utterly decimates it's opposition, we're forced to whittle away at a monsters hp, one insignificant hit at a time, while desperately trying to cure ourselves with the stupid cures attained through our "flexible" class system (ya right...), and they intend for us to do it w/ gimp MP as well.

Solution: "Beef up destructive power, so that melee's don't *have to equip cures if they don't want to" -is that your response? Someone else mentioned, before, that the current system is basically like XI's job system for melee because the mp we have as non-DoW is nearly as pathetic as having a mage job as a sub on a melee -brilliant deduction. However, no matter how insignificant the "assistance" that the mp can offer a class, it will always make it *more* effective than the other ppl who just don't want to be a healer AT ALL, and don't want to have to cure themselves. And again, it forces ppl "out of the loop" b/c no one will want a DD who keeps dying b/c he can never get "more hp, once he's lost it." SE needs to focus on making classes *better at what they do. It's one thing to have DoW draw from the benefits of other DoW classes, but to let cures, and buffs and all this other nonsense leak in as well, is just retarded.

You wanna know what jobs bring to the table? BALANCE -I could go on, but I've proven my point well enough... Next time, "Think before you speak."

ah, you must be new here, welcome to a Final Fantasy game.