The Hunt Public Shaming Needs to end

[Thayos]

There is no such things an an early pull (also confirmed by GM)

This isn't true.

The GM said that according to the ToS, marks can be pulled the moment they spawn.

However, that's completely irrelevant to what a large number of players -- most likely the majority -- regard as and commonly refer to as "early pulls."

Even the GM said he appreciates it when players wait for others and don't pull early.

So, yes... early pulling IS real. It's just not against the rules.

Thayos, you're arguing semantics and words with me

I think it's you who is getting hung up on semantics. What you should be saying is simply, "Early pulling isn't defined in the ToS or against the rules, as confirmed by a GM." But to say it's not real because it's not defined in the ToS is a very flawed leap.

"Early pulling" ultimately equates to a kind of behavior that many people find rude. I can think of countless real-world examples of similar behaviors that different people find tolerable to varying degrees. Another great example is talking on your cell phone while riding the bus. Some people aren't bothered by this at all, and they may even do it themselves because it's within their rights to do so. However, most people are bothered by this. Some people are bothered by people who talk very loudly, while others are bothered by people who talk less loudly. The variances don't change the fact that talking on cell phones while riding the bus is generally a social no-no. It's also a shared social phenomenon that most people have encountered, making it real.

Early pulling isn't "real" because of the ToS... it's real because of the shared reality of players in the game. It's a social thing. It's VERY real. It's just not against the rules or against the ToS, as confirmed by a GM.

And I really like this passage about what the GM said in that older thread:

The point being made was that there is no recourse for early pulling. You can report til the cows come home but no gm will ever act against an individual based on early pulling. It's not against any rule SE made. They can however act on reports of excessive anger responses to early pulling.

This is 100 percent accurate, and to say otherwise is to cherry pick the GM's words (and then add further meaning that never existed).

I don't understand though why some people here are so hell-bent on saying early pulling isn't real, when it so clearly is real? What you people SHOULD be focusing on is that early pulling isn't against the ToS. It shouldn't even matter to you that early pulling is real, because you're free to do it anyway!

[Izsha]

That's still semantics. Not pulling is a courtesy. Nothing more, nothing less. Fast pulls are not a reportable offense. GMS will do zip, zero, nothing to with reports of early pulling because it breaks no rule. It's just 'rude'. It's like calling the cops cause some guy didn't hold the elevator for you. It doesn't matter at all that it's rude. There's nothing you can do about it. Getting on the PA and yelling "cloudxxxxsephirpth didn't hold the elevator! His mother was a hamster and his father smells of elderberries" might get YOU escorted out by security though.

You guys are trying to enforce this player construct of 'hunt etiquette' but it's not enfocable, and SE won't help you enforce it. Needs more Deal With It.

[Mercutial]

They're ALL early pulls to someone. Just last night Nahn spawned and for the first time since the new patch, everyone waited for what seemed like an eternity. I mean... to the point of just being awkward. It was surreal. It didn't help that no pull time was suggested or given by anyone and apparently not a single soul wanted to be accused of an "early pull". EVENTUALLY someone made the pull and yet... wouldn't you know it... someone strolls up too late and proceeds to hurl insults. Now everyone that is there and has been witness to this odd occurrence of hunt trepidation/hesitation can't help but laugh at this individual. It was fairly comical and did an awesome job of illustrating the subjectivity at play here.

[RichardButte]

snip

Guessing it does: SMN adds DPS aggro on top of the pet aggro. As I said, if I'm there with 50+ players, it won't give me full, but if the fight takes 30+ seconds, I've rarely not gotten full credit.

Ironically, I've done it sch+pld and we DON'T get full credit. Sch+pld+any DPS usually cinches it, provided you were there from the very start of the fight.

trouble maker...

I don't know that YOU'RE a troublemaker, but in most games, when you do something specifically for the purpose of angering/inconveniencing other players, it's called "griefing" and it's usually a punishable offense (and there are people who pull early just to do this).

Again, scaling HP solves everything: if the mob takes 2 minutes to kill no matter how many people are fighting it, it gives ample time for everyone who was paying attention to come and get credit. If you failed to get there in 2 minutes, it's no one's fault but yours.

[Spawnie]

said it once ill say it again... remove the hunt system altogther theres way to much drama around it had to laugh the other day was fishing in north shroud the s rank spawned some guy pulled to "early" apparently then a sh*t storm started on shout lasted 40mins lmao was good entertainment while fishing but still way to much drama with the whole system

[Kosmos992k]

This isn't true.

The GM said that according to the ToS, marks can be pulled the moment they spawn.

In other words, there is no such thing as an early pull, confirmed by a GM.

Yes, a section of the playerbase has come to use the term "early pull", defined as "pulling the hunt mark before I, or my LS buddies 'porting in were ready..." That doesn't make it real, it doesn't make it actionable, it is simply the label given to an opinion by a section of the playerbase.

OK, that is arguing semantics, because literally I am saying that there is no such thing as an early pull, but you are correct to say that a section of the community uses the term. Since you wish to cling to that term, how about this;

A hunt mark cannot be "pulled" early by another player because (quoting your post) "marks can be pulled the moment they spawn", as confirmed by a GM.

If you want me to go back and edit my other posts to reflect the this way of phrasing it, I can do that. However, changing the phrasing doesn't in any way alter what I have said, so you'll have to excuse me for not bothering to edit those posts.

Everything else you wrote boils down to "Some people are rude and do rude things. They should not be rude."

I don't disagree that rudeness is socially unacceptable, but let's just get to brass tacks here. It's the behavior of the player, not the act of pulling a mark that is an actionable offense. In the end then, if a mark is pulled before you or someone else things it should have been, nothing actionable has happened unless the player who pulled the mark taunts everyone else in chat, or someone decides to publicly name/shame the player that pulled in chat. What is/is not socially acceptable or a "shared reality" to the player base has nothing to do with the simple facts of the situation, and GMs can only deal in facts when making a determination in this kind of situation.

Here's a fun fact, mud sticks. If you throw out public accusations against people, they have a habit of sticking - regardless of the truth of the situation. A few posts earlier someone implied I was a trouble maker that others should protect their LS against. The person making the accusation knows nothing about me, but there I have been accused and labelled. In the minds of some, I will be presumed guilty of who knows what.

In fact I rarely hunt, I've never pulled a hunt mark myself beyond a B rank because it's a whole lot less stress and trouble to let someone else do it. I don't leech hunts, the only time I show up at an A or S is when I happen to be near by when it spawns, I don't park my butt in the Mist and wait for an LS shout. And yet, I am a trouble maker according to someone else in this topic who doesn't even play on the same server as me.

People need to stop worrying about when a mark is pulled and whether or not they consider it early. More than that, people need to consider what they say, and think very carefully before throwing out labels or accusations.

[NyarukoW]

Calling me a trouble maker, ....I did not condone a player or players arriving at a S mark (while others are standing by for friends to arrive), and taking it for themselves. I simply stated that it's not against the rules

You are a devil's advocate for the troublemakers by trying to give them a carte blanche to be inconsiderate and blatantly abuse other players. You don't have do it yourself, but your position is arguing to allow players to behave badly. And you pretend to speak for the GMs as to know what isn't against the rules. They have no rules here, because there is grey areas requiring GM judgement, but they do have rules against griefing. And do expect that when a whole LS of players are griefed by the actual early puller there will be consequences even if the GM is not enforcing anything right away.

The LS suffering the antics of the troll is fully within their right to identify and blacklist the troll. It is not against to rule to shout at the elite mark that "<player_name> early pulled last 3 elites, please black list and remove from LS." It will be obviously to everyone that <player_name> has been causing problems over and over at every elite mark. It is well know that a FC has basically disbanded and left server because they earned themselves their trolling reputation. The GMs only enforce a minium set of rules, but players together have in game tools to enforce rules beyond that.

[RichardButte]

That doesn't make it real

Of course it's real.

When people do it for the purpose of laughing at others who didn't get there in time, what are they laughing about, otherwise?

[Kosmos992k]

You are a troublemaker by trying to give the real troublemakers a carte blanche to be inconsiderate and blatantly abuse other players.

Before you go any further, consider your own behavior, you are expanding the scope of your entirely baseless accusation against me, and believe me, I do take offense. I'm asking nicely for you to stop, and retract the accusations.

Now, why don't you go back and read my posts carefully, I do not in any way condone, or approve of anyone abusing others.

Of course it's real.

When people do it for the purpose of laughing at others who didn't get there in time, what are they laughing about, otherwise?

Read what I said, if someone is doing they, they're obviously harassing others and should be reported, how is this not clear from what I have said? The problem is not the pulling of the mark, it's the behavior of the player.

[NyarukoW]

I do take offense. I'm asking nicely for you to stop, and retract the accusations.

Now, why don't you go back and read my posts carefully, I do not in any way condone, or approve of anyone abusing others.
...

I do take offense of you pretending to speak for GMs with clearly unsubstantiated claims when "GMs have confirmed" next to nothing. When you retract the false claims, then I'll retract my accusations. You are not the GM and you do NOT get to play impostor for them pretending to claim stuff they deliberately left grey.