Identifying Problems, and Constructive Criticism.

[Heartfire]

To all of those on the forums, thanks for reading and posting. I'd just like to say that I am very happy that SE has made these forums. It's a nice step in the right direction.


As a disclaimer, I did enjoy playing FFXI very much. I won't say that I want the game to be FFXI-2, but I was fairly disappointed that they took out elements of the game that I thought were already well done. It bothered me to see mistakes made in places where SE's previous, (and rather successful), MMO already had answers. I'm sure some might misinterpret that, but I hope that they can see there is a difference between wanting exactly the same game, and wanting a similar game that had improved where the previous one had problems. Call it progress?

But it seems that a lot of the problems in the game come from these issues that were dressed up as "design features." (I love the word "feature." It makes horrible problems seem like they were put there for a purpose). For example, the "feature" known as the fatigue system. Some don't mind it. But the majority of people I have conversed with are very adamant about leaving FFXIV when subscriptions roll around, should that "feature" still be in place. I know that I certainly won't pay for a month's worth of playtime, only to be told I can't use it.

FFXIV and FFXI do share some characteristics, though. As they should. They are both Final Fantasy games, after all. Take the resource system, (HP/MP/TP). It isn't a surprise that we would see it again. In fact, it would be strange if they weren't set up as such. But I feel that in FFXIV's quest to be "different" from FFXI, they made a serious problem.

Active and Passive mode is a sizable part of what makes the game so monotonous, or at least from the perspective of any ranged class. Aside from the lack of use for abilities, (spells don't do great damage, or stick to the mob), the fact that we stand right next to the mob and cast spells / shoot arrows, is enough to make the game feel less than spectacular. Obviously, in a group, things are different. But for anyone who solos, I'm sure it's frustrating to watch an archer miss a shot when the squirrel is sitting right there.

Why would it be a bad thing to reuse FFXI's system for combat? Give classes more tools to use, and make it so ranged classes don't have to lock on / have reduced movement speed. Add a longer casting time to spells, and make them hit harder, or stick better. Make it so archers have to line up the shot first. But being locked on, spamming Darts makes the DoM classes feel exactly as bland as the DoW.

Obviously, the Active/Passive system was designed to make the game more fast paced. They don't want the Mages to be resting up for mp while the archer grabs another mob. And as it stands, Mages have to be locked into combat, or else they will regain MP/HP, which would be unfair to other classes. (Not that they can't just stay outside of combat anyway, and only come in to heal. Though that does take some precious seconds away from getting those much needed heals).

It is obvious to me that this system, while not as major a hindrance as other "features," is one of the small parts of the game that adds to the sense of monotony that our class system currently has. There is really no difference to playing a DoW or a DoM, as they both stand there spamming the "1" key.


Speaking of classes, there seems to be some rather heated debate on the subject. I am in favor of reworking all of the abilities, stripping down the classes and rebuilding them. I really do not enjoy the classes as they are now, because there is a lack of definition. All of the DoW classes play exactly the same, and the DoM classes are very bland.

I know that I'm going to make a lot of people angry here, but it's the internet, so I should be safe:

We need to break Conjurer apart.

Before anyone has a fit, I want to make my point clear. With having both of our magic classes using heals, they will both inevitably be healers. I have seen far too many Conjurers on my server that play incorrectly in a group setting. They seem to feel that Conjurer is just a Black Mage with heals and buffs. Fact of the matter is, any class with heals+buffs = healer. I'm sure there are some people who say that if they want to customize their character to specialize in offensive casting only, then it's their choice. I won't disagree. However, when they finally do get a party search function that isn't horrible, I imagine we will see a lot of Conjurers looking for groups. In my mind, (and most of the people I've talked with), I would assume that it meant they would buff and heal. So for the sake of the "dps onry" noobs, give us a defined healer and defined offensive caster class! It goes back to the Scholar conundrum. They have the ability to use both Black and White magic. Nine times out of ten, they're going to be healing. (Until Merits, where they don't have haste).

That's my big problem with the DoM classes, is that they're both set up to have both offensive and defensive magic. I can understand a healer needing a way to solo. But there are better ways to do it. If SE really wants to fix those classes, then they need to be able to make a very difficult choice. I'm sure that many in the player-base would be upset. But it really just does need to be done. It's like breaking a finger nail over the nail-bed. If they don't clip it now, it's only going to get infected or ripped off.

As for the DoW classes, it's obvious why they need definition. After leveling each to a certain level (generally under Rank 20), they all play the same, no matter which class is the main.

This makes me ask a difficult question: The Action Points. Why do we need these?

I understand that the -idea- behind this system was to make the character very customizable. But in fact, it is an annoyance, and forces players to be generic. I'm sure that most melee players have equipped Blood Bath or Raging Strikes at some point.

The term "Customize," to me, implies making choices. As it stands, there isn't much of a choice to be made. We don't have to really give up anything. I can just select the best abilities of each class, and go with it. (As there are some obvious abilities that don't really need to be used. "Drain" comes to mind). As it is now, I just play a Thaumaturge with the tier one Conjurer buffs. Obviously, it is better if a Conjurer cast them. But I just don't feel very unique. I didn't have to give anything up to do it.

As a hypothetical, imagine that there was a time that most players had all the classes, (not counting land or hand, as I'm still miffed about crafting carrying the same importance as adventuring. No thanks). Supposing that an individual had every ability in the game available to them, they could make their "ultimate warrior." As trends happen, suddenly everyone would be using the same build, and we would have servers full of the same "customizations." So how do we stop this from happening? I'm sure no one who is interested in "customization" wants to see a repeat of /nin....

My general solution is to have all of the equipped class's abilities be functional. It's ridiculous that a class can level up, but only have the abilities that they select to be on their bar, (which is tedious, time consuming, and annoying. Can they at least add a drag and drop option to it?) I feel like if someone has reached a certain rank, they should be able to use all the abilities that they have learned. If only a small portion of those abilities were able to be used while playing as a different class, then we would retain class individuality. Customization is about choosing. We can't have an "ultimate" character. We need to have people thinking in the idea of party roles, and what classes and sub abilities would be useful to fulfill the demands of the role. Currently, we can use higher level abilities from other classes to level our lower ones in a way that I'm sure was not intended. So why not have abilities that are required to be the appropriate class, or maybe even make it so the current class must be twice as high as the rank that an abilities is gained by another class. It would be similar to the sub-job system, (though not quite a clone), and would still have the ability to customize. Again, it's about giving and taking. We shouldn't have it both ways, or the game gets boring.


I'm not going to go into detail on crafting, (don't know how to fix it, really), other than that I feel crafting always has been, and always should be as side-chore. It's not meant to be a class that we are to level as an equal to our adventuring classes. Obviously one is more exciting than the other. I really would like to know who's bright idea that was.... "You know what's more fun than exploring new worlds and encountering mythical creatures? Playing the same damn mini-game for hours on end! Also, we can make players do it from how many times they have to repair!" (Oh yeah, take durability out of the game, or make it so the NPC can repair all pieces of armor/jewelry to full durability, at a price that doesn't make me angry when I go buy a new piece of armor from the Market House for cheaper).

Sorry for the sarcasm. But I am decidedly not a fan of crafting / durability / fatigue in this game. I got alchemy to rank ten, and I am amazed I could put up with it for that long. The flaw really is in its intent.

[Heartfire]

I'm curious about something. Who else doesn't like the "Weapon = class" idea? I thought it was neat at first, as it would get rid of poor judgement calls. (Anyone remember Warriors with no subjob using a spear because they wanted to be Dragoons?) I thought it would be cool to know that each class had a weapon it was good with. Unfortunately, I forgot that one of the really neat parts about FFXI was mixing weapons. Joyuse was good for Paladin and Red Mages, (and Warriors who also had Ridill). Clubs tended to be the ideal event item, as all classes could equip them. So it got me to thinking. If each class is based on what weapon they use, then it should be easy to identify what classes are coming in the future. Great Sword, single-handed Axes, etc.... This is until I realized that Gladiator uses daggers. I can't understand that, really. I get that Marauder is Warrior / Dark Knight, because of their health stealing abilities. And Gladiator is a Warrior / Paladin, but without magic abilities. But if one class can use swords and daggers, (which in the game are only categorized as "Gladiator Arms," so I understand how they could easily change it), I can't help but feel like there is something missing here. I'm not sure I can put my finger on it, but if I had to guess, I'd say it has something to do with certain classes being able to equip multiple types of weapons. For example, I miss that Red Mages could use club/wand, staff, dagger, sword, and buckler style shields, and this would change the way they played. (Also, I have a cudgel. Can I use a melee attack? I have a huge hammer, and I wanna hit someone with it)!

Obviously, the list goes on. I'm sure that eventually, things will get ironed out, and we'll see what the game is like in the coming months and years. I just wanted to post a few of the issues I have, and make some constructive comments about them. I think if SE sees too many posts that aren't articulate in thought, then they might not feel inclined to see our side of things.

Again, I'd like to say that I don't want the game to be FFXI-2. But I think it is important for us to understand some of the game-play mechanics that it had, why they worked, and why our current ones don't work. We need a firm base to build off of, and most of the game obviously takes concepts from FFXI, but they warped them into things that don't work. So hopefully, if we get a base that is similar, (or at least sturdy enough to work with), then we can get the game back on track.

Thanks for reading, (I know it's a long one. I just have a lot to say, and I thought I'd knock it out in one post rather than a bunch of them).

So give me your thoughts. I wanna hear some constructive feed-back, so we can give SE an idea of what we want to see.

[Heartfire]

Jeeze, that was a long one. They forced me to cut it into two separate posts!

[MysteryG]

Great post! It's a bit of a word wall, but more people need to do things like this to get SE's attention and shine light on the real problems with the game.

I agree with alot of what you wrote, and I think it's a great start. I do think the Crafting/Durability is a fun system, but I think it just needs to have an Auction House to support it properly and spread the goods competitively, quickly, and more evenly between the cities. The wards can stay as a supplement, I always liked looking for special deals in the bazzars of Jeuno.

My biggest concern is not any of the mechanics or ideas behind the game so much as the core system it's built on. It's easy to change the name of a class, or tweak the amount of XP you get from a fight, but the changes I really want to see are performance issues. I have a killer computer, and a lightning fast internet connection, but I still get really frustrated when it takes my character what seems like 5 whole seconds to stop, sheath/unsheath weapon, stand straight up and then resume running. Why can't this be done while running?

The responsiveness of these commands and actions is what makes the game unplayable more than anything else for me. I want to press a button, and at least FEEL like the action has started, and will finish when the cast bar tells me it will. Trying to cast spells without macros is incredibly frustrating due to the mismatched casting bars, and even when I select an action, I feel like he waits a second or two to even begin casting.

The UI has gotten slightly better since the launch of the game, but I still feel like it takes me 15 minutes to reset my action bar, or apply my new skill points. I want this to feel responsive, quick and functional. There is 2011 folks, FFXIV is supposed to be a next generation game; there's no reason we should accept anything less. I'm very sorry for ranting about this, but I am growing very tired of SE refusing to acknowledge that this is even an issue. (For those of you who are still a bit unsure about what I mean, go download the Crysis 2 demo and click around in the interface without actually entering a game. It's quick, snappy, and I know that the moment I press a button, something will happen and I'll get to where I'm going. Even with the game going on, the menus work just as quickly. This is something WoW also does just as well. Button pressed, menu up. Key pushed, spell cast. There is no wait, no room for your mind to consider that anything other than what you just asked for, actually happened.

(Disclaimer: I really don't like WoW and I'm not saying Crysis can be reasonably compared to FFXIV, but they have DAMN good UI systems and the actions feel smooth.)

Also, why do I need to select "Stand up" from a menu instead of just moving? This is one of a few areas I felt we've actually stepped backwards from FFXI.

Please tell me what you think. I really don't believe I'm alone in my feelings about these things.

[Heartfire]

Thanks MysteryG for responding. I apologize about the ridiculous wall of text I made. But it was lovingly built so that SE might notice some of the problems.

I agree with your disdain for unsheathing/re-sheathing weapons. It does seem very clunky for a game that wants us to be constantly moving. From what I understand, the reason they got rid of resting for hp / mp was so that players wouldn't feel like they had to stop as much. But the system is just silly as it stands now. I realize that TP is easy to gain. But would it really hurt the game if TP had more weight behind it, and DoW classes had more abilities rather than weapon-skills? I think FFXI had a great system for dealing with resources. It made casters reflect on the scenario before they cast spells. I liked that system a lot more than just spamming the same two elemental spells over and over again. And honestly, I feel like the weight behind mp and what spells should be cast was a large part of what made playing a mage class different from playing a melee class.

But that kind of goes back to my point, that the reason why most of the problems exist now is because they wanted to be so different from FFXI. I agree that FFXIV should have its own unique feel. I really do. But at the same time, it boggles my mind that most of the problems in the game stem from copying parts of FFXI, but then not following through.

The solution, (just an opinion, obviously), is to simply use the base roots that FFXI had. If we add to the game, it will eventually become a different experience. There are so many people who want to defend a broken game because it's different. Different isn't always better.... If we just went back to our roots, and use the things that worked, get rid of the things that didn't work, we would have a secure base. From there, we can add new ideas to make the game grow into something unique. But as it stands now, the game is only half-way committed to being anything.

As for the AH "problem." It doesn't bother me so much. The only difference between what we have now, and any normal AH system is the fact that we have to actively search for the guy with a star over their head over a sea of bodies. It still bugs me, but it is one of the last things I'm worried about now. Though to be honest, if they made it so we could purchase the item from the item search menu, I would never step foot inside a market ward again. But if SE is so bent on having the "immersion" of a market place, (not that a bunch of people standing around aimlessly is really immersible... actually has the opposite effect for me), then they're going to be stubborn and stick with it.

The comical part of it all is what they intended to do, and how it was actually executed. For example, the craft-heavy system was supposed to be a way to bring the community together, so we had to rely on each other. Unfortunately, all it really does is frustrate and annoy players. We spend more time than we really want to in crafting, and durability is such a joke that we can just buy the same set of armor from the Market-House.

I think if SE looked at a problem objectively, and said "X is a problem. How do we fix it in the most efficient way?" Then we wouldn't have had such a clunky system. The fact that they are trying so desperately to make themselves different from FFXI, (which is crazy, as the game's earliest advertisements were made to appeal to the FFXI group. It was suggested that it would be just as refined as FFXI, but taking away the parts that didn't work, like 6 person parties to gain EXP), is what makes the game fail. Most of the people that quit were straight from FFXI, looking for newer content and a fresh start. Most of my friends went straight back to FFXI. Honestly, I would too if I had the time to sit down and play....

But I also understand that for the people who have stuck it out, (though almost every time I log on, I keep telling myself I shouldn't be playing. I just want it to work, so very much), they want to feel like the game is its own entity. I think the problem comes from being a Final Fantasy game. What was unique about FFXI was that it was an online version of a Final Fantasy game. We don't have that in this one. The UI is all out of whack, and we have so many "features" that it's killing the game.

Just an example, the Action Point system. What's wrong with having a main class be able to use every ability that it has learned? Isn't that the point of leveling it? Or was it just to get one ability? There is no customization in the game, because anyone can equip anything. Some people are in the impression that this is what customization is. We need each class to have a well defined role, (Conjurer much?), and to have abilities that complement the class's ability to fulfill that role.

I think that's enough ranting for now. But please, I would like to get a thread going where people put in the time to really clarify what about a certain feature they don't like. Most of the other threads are similar, but no one seems to quite pin-point the problem. Obviously certain "features" are flawed. But what about them (specifically in design vs. intent), is bad?

Anyone?

[Linnear]

I have a couple of questions for SE

Why can't you stand up if you try to move?
since when does a dagger and a sword swing at the same speed?
If I am a trained adventurere why can 't my feet and arms move in cordination to sheth/unshet my weapon?
What happened to level sync?
almost every patch in FFXI was an improvement on the game, did SE develop amnesia from that experience?

The most important question I have is Where did my /slap command go?