o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Zantetsuken]

It would be best if the quantity of HQ materials in a synth would just increase the chance of HQ final result.

Something like:

0/6 HQ mats = ~5% HQ result
1/6 HQ mat = ~20% HQ result
2/6 HQ mat = ~35% HQ result
3/6 HQ mat = ~50% HQ result
4/6 HQ mat = ~65% HQ result
5/6 HQ mat = ~80% HQ result
6/6 HQ mat = ~95% HQ result

[Amineri]

I've been digging a bit into the example high level recipes that Yoshi-P posted (courtesy of the translation by the fearless Bayohne), and some of the results surprised me.

-----------------------------
■Cobalt Sabatons (Armorer Recipe)
-----------------------------
(Equipment Level: 49)　*High-Level Feet Gear (For Tanking)

Cobalt Sabatons
├　△Cobalt Plate　×3
├　▲Cobalt Rings　×1
├　□Boar Leather　×1
└　■Electrum Ingot　×1

Consumed Catalysts
Earth Crystal　×2
Ice Shard　×3

Key take-away here is that there are SIX (6) ingredients that must be made HQ in order for an HQ final result. Also note that THREE (3) of these are Cobalt Plates. Recall that there is no skimping any more. Every single ingredient to the recipe must be HQ!

Recipes for Ingredients
△Cobalt Plate (Armorer Recipe)
└　○Cobalt Ingot　×2

Here was the surprising part to me. On my first couple of read-throughs, I had thought that the general rule was: Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Finish Item. But here we see an ingredient (Cobalt Plate) made from another ingredient (Cobalt Ingot). Also, note that now a Plate takes TWO (2) Ingots. The old recipe for plates required a single ingot. This will make creating HQ Cobalt Plates a lot harder then the other three ingredients.

○Cobalt Ingot (Armorer Recipe)
├　Specular Iron Ore　×2
└　Iron Ore　×2

Here is the Cobalt Ingot recipe. A key piece of missing information is the number of ingots produced. The current recipe for ingots is 5 nuggets ~> 1 ingot, so making 1 ingot is a viable assumption. However 4 ore ~> 12 nuggets ~> 2.2 ingots, so 2 ingots is also a viable assumption.

▲Cobalt Rings (Armorer Recipe)
├　Specular Iron Ore　×2
└　Iron Ore　×2

□Boar Leather (Tanner Recipe)
├　Boar Hide　×1
└　Alumen　×1

■Electrum Ingot (Goldsmith Recipe)
└　Electrum Ore　×4

No surprises in the rest. The other three ingredients are the usual Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Final Item.

HQ Assumptions:
Now, we have to make a few assumptions. How hard will it be to HQ an Ingredient, given HQ materials? The harder assumption is that it will be as difficult as creating an +3 material / part result under the current system. An easier assumption would be creating a +2 or +3 result.

Using the Mooglebox HQ calculator, and assuming a very competent crafter (equal rank synth, a starting Quality of 300 from HQ mats, and 100 Quality gained during synthesis), a finish Quality of 400 yields about a 2% chance to +3 and a 6% chance to +2.

• Harder assumption : 2% chance ~> expected 50 synths to make HQ Ingredient
• Easier assumption : 8% chance ~> expected 12.5 synths to make HQ Ingredient

For the Cobalt Rings, Boar Leather, and Electrum Ingot, this is not horribly onerous, even for the harder assumption.

Hardest Assumptions:
However, the Cobalt Plates are another matter. Since we need 3 plates, the harder assumption requires 150 plate synths to generate this. However, this requires 300 HQ Cobalt Ingots (remember that it is TWO (2) Cobalt Ingots per Cobalt Plate).

In turn, to generate 300 HQ ingots, using the same harder assumptions as above, would require a staggering 15,000 Cobalt Ingot synths. This in turn would require 30,000 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 30,000 HQ Iron Ore. At 2 minutes per synth, these 15,000 Cobalt synths would represent over 20 days of synthing time. Clearly this would be HARD!! (or at least tedious).

Second Hardest Assumptions
Easing up on the requirements a bit, if the ingot synth generates TWO (2) ingots per synth, then only half the number of Cobalt Ingot synths would be required -- a mere 7,500, taking a mere 10 days of crafting to accomplish. This is probably a bit of overkill on the difficulty as well.

Third Hardest Assumptions
The next step of difficulty is if the ingot synth generates 1 ingot, but a (current system) result of +2 or +3 makes on HQ result.

In this case, to generate 3 plates requires an expected 37.5 plate synths. Doubling this (needing 2 ingots per synth) means a requirement of 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots.

To generate the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots, a total of 937.5 ingot synths are expected. This would require 1875 HQ Specular Iron Ore, and 1875 HQ Iron Ore, and an estimated 31 hours of synthing (at 2 minutes per synth) to process. This is now entering the realm of the possible, but 31 hour of grinding ingot synths to generate enough Cobalt Ingots is unlikely to be anyone's definition of "easy"

Easiest Assumptions
If the HQ rate is the most generous (same as +2 or +3 of current system), and the ingot synth generate TWO (2) ingots per synth, then the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots could be generated with only 469 Cobalt Ingot Synths. This would require 'only' 938 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 938 HQ Iron Ore, with a processing time of 15.5. hours.

Conclusion
This synth is not necessarily the definition of "easy". Even with the most generous assumptions (an 8% chance to HQ PLUS the new ingot recipes generating two ingots per synth), well over 16 hours of crafting time and over 2000 units of HQ materials (expected values, so subject to luck/chance) are required in order to make an HQ pair of Cobalt Sabatons.

Further, this does NOT include the time / cost for upgrading the sabatons using the recipe for dyeing them red. The dyeing recipe requires an additional Cobalt Plate. From above, each plate is taking about 5 hours of time.

On top of this, with the new materia system, the chance of this item being destroyed when attempting to socket with two or materia may be high.

This system is starting to look less easy.

[Arcell]

So what are people's impressions of this now that the materia system has been unveiled? I mean the simplification of recipes and the HQ changes almost seem necessary with how often gear will be taken out of the system by materia conversion and failed attachment.

Consider this: You are about to slot a 5th materia into your HQ weapon. The other 4 worked without a hitch and you're about to make the ultimate weapon! However it fails and you lose all 5 materia and the weapon.

With the current system the above situation would be rage-quit worth depending on the items involved. With the new system yes gear will be easier to come by but with good reason. You'll need to be able to acquire a lot of gear with relative ease to even attempt higher level materia attachments.

[Amineri]

So what are people's impressions of this now that the materia system has been unveiled? I mean the simplification of recipes and the HQ changes almost seem necessary with how often gear will be taken out of the system by materia conversion and failed attachment.

Consider this: You are about to slot a 5th materia into your HQ weapon. The other 4 worked without a hitch and you're about to make the ultimate weapon! However it fails and you lose all 5 materia and the weapon.

With the current system the above situation would be rage-quit worth depending on the items involved. With the new system yes gear will be easier to come by but with good reason. You'll need to be able to acquire a lot of gear with relative ease to even attempt higher level materia attachments.

I can forgive you for not reading my analysis posted just above your post, Arcell . It is rather long.

Short version, even with fairly generous assumptions, those HQ Red Cobalt Sabatons look like 20 hours of grinding synths and maybe 2500 HQ materials to make. Doing the math, it's not looking like cake.

A major part of what makes it HARD is requiring that every ingredient to the final synthesis be HQ. Currently crafters cut corners by focussing on recipes with high numbers of dropped mats (jade crook, crab bow), and not using the NQ (or +1) versions of the "hard to make ingredients".

The final assembly may be cake, but requiring every single ingredient HQ is a step up in difficulty.

[NoctisUmbra]

I've been digging a bit into the example high level recipes that Yoshi-P posted (courtesy of the translation by the fearless Bayohne), and some of the results surprised me.



Key take-away here is that there are SIX (6) ingredients that must be made HQ in order for an HQ final result. Also note that THREE (3) of these are Cobalt Plates. Recall that there is no skimping any more. Every single ingredient to the recipe must be HQ!


Here was the surprising part to me. On my first couple of read-throughs, I had thought that the general rule was: Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Finish Item. But here we see an ingredient (Cobalt Plate) made from another ingredient (Cobalt Ingot). Also, note that now a Plate takes TWO (2) Ingots. The old recipe for plates required a single ingot. This will make creating HQ Cobalt Plates a lot harder then the other three ingredients.


Here is the Cobalt Ingot recipe. A key piece of missing information is the number of ingots produced. The current recipe for ingots is 5 nuggets ~> 1 ingot, so making 1 ingot is a viable assumption. However 4 ore ~> 12 nuggets ~> 2.2 ingots, so 2 ingots is also a viable assumption.



No surprises in the rest. The other three ingredients are the usual Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Final Item.

HQ Assumptions:
Now, we have to make a few assumptions. How hard will it be to HQ an Ingredient, given HQ materials? The harder assumption is that it will be as difficult as creating an +3 material / part result under the current system. An easier assumption would be creating a +2 or +3 result.

Using the Mooglebox HQ calculator, and assuming a very competent crafter (equal rank synth, a starting Quality of 300 from HQ mats, and 100 Quality gained during synthesis), a finish Quality of 400 yields about a 2% chance to +3 and a 6% chance to +2.

• Harder assumption : 2% chance ~> expected 50 synths to make HQ Ingredient
• Easier assumption : 8% chance ~> expected 12.5 synths to make HQ Ingredient

For the Cobalt Rings, Boar Leather, and Electrum Ingot, this is not horribly onerous, even for the harder assumption.

Hardest Assumptions:
However, the Cobalt Plates are another matter. Since we need 3 plates, the harder assumption requires 150 plate synths to generate this. However, this requires 300 HQ Cobalt Ingots (remember that it is TWO (2) Cobalt Ingots per Cobalt Plate).

In turn, to generate 300 HQ ingots, using the same harder assumptions as above, would require a staggering 15,000 Cobalt Ingot synths. This in turn would require 30,000 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 30,000 HQ Iron Ore. At 2 minutes per synth, these 15,000 Cobalt synths would represent over 20 days of synthing time. Clearly this would be HARD!! (or at least tedious).

Second Hardest Assumptions
Easing up on the requirements a bit, if the ingot synth generates TWO (2) ingots per synth, then only half the number of Cobalt Ingot synths would be required -- a mere 7,500, taking a mere 10 days of crafting to accomplish. This is probably a bit of overkill on the difficulty as well.

Third Hardest Assumptions
The next step of difficulty is if the ingot synth generates 1 ingot, but a (current system) result of +2 or +3 makes on HQ result.

In this case, to generate 3 plates requires an expected 37.5 plate synths. Doubling this (needing 2 ingots per synth) means a requirement of 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots.

To generate the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots, a total of 937.5 ingot synths are expected. This would require 1875 HQ Specular Iron Ore, and 1875 HQ Iron Ore, and an estimated 31 hours of synthing (at 2 minutes per synth) to process. This is now entering the realm of the possible, but 31 hour of grinding ingot synths to generate enough Cobalt Ingots is unlikely to be anyone's definition of "easy"

Easiest Assumptions
If the HQ rate is the most generous (same as +2 or +3 of current system), and the ingot synth generate TWO (2) ingots per synth, then the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots could be generated with only 469 Cobalt Ingot Synths. This would require 'only' 938 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 938 HQ Iron Ore, with a processing time of 15.5. hours.

Conclusion
This synth is not necessarily the definition of "easy". Even with the most generous assumptions (an 8% chance to HQ PLUS the new ingot recipes generating two ingots per synth), well over 16 hours of crafting time and over 2000 units of HQ materials (expected values, so subject to luck/chance) are required in order to make an HQ pair of Cobalt Sabatons.

Further, this does NOT include the time / cost for upgrading the sabatons using the recipe for dyeing them red. The dyeing recipe requires an additional Cobalt Plate. From above, each plate is taking about 5 hours of time.

On top of this, with the new materia system, the chance of this item being destroyed when attempting to socket with two or materia may be high.

This system is starting to look less easy.

+1 to this post.

Now this is the proper way to analyze the known facts and suggest possible levels of difficulty.

If more people put this much work into forming well-thought-out posts instead of blindly bashing/supporting changes these forums would be a much more productive place ^^

[Arcell]

I can forgive you for not reading my analysis posted just above your post, Arcell . It is rather long.

Sorry about that, just hit reply and wanted to pose that question to the people of this thread -goes back to read it-

[WillRiker]

I've been digging a bit into the example high level recipes that Yoshi-P posted (courtesy of the translation by the fearless Bayohne), and some of the results surprised me.



Key take-away here is that there are SIX (6) ingredients that must be made HQ in order for an HQ final result. Also note that THREE (3) of these are Cobalt Plates. Recall that there is no skimping any more. Every single ingredient to the recipe must be HQ!


Here was the surprising part to me. On my first couple of read-throughs, I had thought that the general rule was: Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Finish Item. But here we see an ingredient (Cobalt Plate) made from another ingredient (Cobalt Ingot). Also, note that now a Plate takes TWO (2) Ingots. The old recipe for plates required a single ingot. This will make creating HQ Cobalt Plates a lot harder then the other three ingredients.


Here is the Cobalt Ingot recipe. A key piece of missing information is the number of ingots produced. The current recipe for ingots is 5 nuggets ~> 1 ingot, so making 1 ingot is a viable assumption. However 4 ore ~> 12 nuggets ~> 2.2 ingots, so 2 ingots is also a viable assumption.



No surprises in the rest. The other three ingredients are the usual Raw Material ~> Ingredient ~> Final Item.

HQ Assumptions:
Now, we have to make a few assumptions. How hard will it be to HQ an Ingredient, given HQ materials? The harder assumption is that it will be as difficult as creating an +3 material / part result under the current system. An easier assumption would be creating a +2 or +3 result.

Using the Mooglebox HQ calculator, and assuming a very competent crafter (equal rank synth, a starting Quality of 300 from HQ mats, and 100 Quality gained during synthesis), a finish Quality of 400 yields about a 2% chance to +3 and a 6% chance to +2.

• Harder assumption : 2% chance ~> expected 50 synths to make HQ Ingredient
• Easier assumption : 8% chance ~> expected 12.5 synths to make HQ Ingredient

For the Cobalt Rings, Boar Leather, and Electrum Ingot, this is not horribly onerous, even for the harder assumption.

Hardest Assumptions:
However, the Cobalt Plates are another matter. Since we need 3 plates, the harder assumption requires 150 plate synths to generate this. However, this requires 300 HQ Cobalt Ingots (remember that it is TWO (2) Cobalt Ingots per Cobalt Plate).

In turn, to generate 300 HQ ingots, using the same harder assumptions as above, would require a staggering 15,000 Cobalt Ingot synths. This in turn would require 30,000 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 30,000 HQ Iron Ore. At 2 minutes per synth, these 15,000 Cobalt synths would represent over 20 days of synthing time. Clearly this would be HARD!! (or at least tedious).

Second Hardest Assumptions
Easing up on the requirements a bit, if the ingot synth generates TWO (2) ingots per synth, then only half the number of Cobalt Ingot synths would be required -- a mere 7,500, taking a mere 10 days of crafting to accomplish. This is probably a bit of overkill on the difficulty as well.

Third Hardest Assumptions
The next step of difficulty is if the ingot synth generates 1 ingot, but a (current system) result of +2 or +3 makes on HQ result.

In this case, to generate 3 plates requires an expected 37.5 plate synths. Doubling this (needing 2 ingots per synth) means a requirement of 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots.

To generate the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots, a total of 937.5 ingot synths are expected. This would require 1875 HQ Specular Iron Ore, and 1875 HQ Iron Ore, and an estimated 31 hours of synthing (at 2 minutes per synth) to process. This is now entering the realm of the possible, but 31 hour of grinding ingot synths to generate enough Cobalt Ingots is unlikely to be anyone's definition of "easy"

Easiest Assumptions
If the HQ rate is the most generous (same as +2 or +3 of current system), and the ingot synth generate TWO (2) ingots per synth, then the 75 HQ Cobalt Ingots could be generated with only 469 Cobalt Ingot Synths. This would require 'only' 938 HQ Specular Iron Ore and 938 HQ Iron Ore, with a processing time of 15.5. hours.

Conclusion
This synth is not necessarily the definition of "easy". Even with the most generous assumptions (an 8% chance to HQ PLUS the new ingot recipes generating two ingots per synth), well over 16 hours of crafting time and over 2000 units of HQ materials (expected values, so subject to luck/chance) are required in order to make an HQ pair of Cobalt Sabatons.

Further, this does NOT include the time / cost for upgrading the sabatons using the recipe for dyeing them red. The dyeing recipe requires an additional Cobalt Plate. From above, each plate is taking about 5 hours of time.

On top of this, with the new materia system, the chance of this item being destroyed when attempting to socket with two or materia may be high.

This system is starting to look less easy.

I would add that this isn't entirely accurate. You only cover one side of the issue. You are describing how +3 mats get down graded into NQ. You do this incredibly well when you discus making ingots directly from ores. But, a problem arises when you talk about moving to the next stage, plates.

When you move from ores to ingots, you mention how most of your +3 mat'l will degrade to NQ ingots. Then you mention how most of your HQ ingots degrade down to NQ plates. I agree with this, but i think that when calculating the odds, you missed half of the equation. A not insignificant number of your NQ ingots will be upgraded from their NQ state to an HQ state. I do not see this anywhere in your calculations. It seems that you remove all of the NQ from the system, only to tack them on as if unsynthed at the very end.

So, the odds are better than your calculations make it seem like they are. Personally, i think the odds are still abysmal. But, if your going to do this calculation, you should not forget to mention both parts of the calculation involved.

[Ferth]

no i do not craft because i think the crafting system sucks, which is why i support the changes, duh. I will start crafting after 1.19 because of the changes. The changes are meant for the general good of the game, not to appease the hard core crafting community.
Also i do have a lvl 20 lth, i think im close to hitting 21 though

What exactly do you think these changes will do to make crafting suck less? Or rather what exactly is it about crafting right now that makes you feel that it sucks?

Because with the changes this thread refers to, the only thing that will change are the items you have to make over and over.

The minigame doesn't change and the rate of progression doesn't change... What do you envision these changes are going to do? Because most of us realize the changes brought up in this thread are only going to change the items you grind for skill.

It's really hard not to reach the conclusion that you have no real understanding about what you dislike about crafting and just hear "CHANGE!" and start salivating.

[Chezen]

So what are people's impressions of this now that the materia system has been unveiled? I mean the simplification of recipes and the HQ changes almost seem necessary with how often gear will be taken out of the system by materia conversion and failed attachment.

Consider this: You are about to slot a 5th materia into your HQ weapon. The other 4 worked without a hitch and you're about to make the ultimate weapon! However it fails and you lose all 5 materia and the weapon.

With the current system the above situation would be rage-quit worth depending on the items involved. With the new system yes gear will be easier to come by but with good reason. You'll need to be able to acquire a lot of gear with relative ease to even attempt higher level materia attachments.

I wasn't feeling easier with Yosh-P's explanations either, so I was waiting for more information to become available. Your post is exactly what I thought when I read about the materia. Now the question I ask of myself is, "Will I enjoy the challenge of trying to make a full set of HQ 5 materia slotted gear?" Probably.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

I still don't see how people are this confused......

The difficulty of making an HQ item is now shifted to making the parts themselves, and not the final product.