o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Ferth]

Thank you, Sorel. It's nice to know that even though you don't agree with what I am saying all the time you can still see the merit in my arguments.

That being said, your point about the wards is partly correct. The limits of the market wards are a huge factor in how the economy in FFXIV is currently functioning. But beyond that if crafters have to grind on finished products throughout their career that means that you won't be the only one with 30 hempen doublets to sell.

It's possible that at the outset you may sell 10 doublets in 24 hours, but lets say 4 more people decided to rank weaver around the same time as you... now there are 120 doublets in the market. If out of the 4 of you 10 sell in 24 hours there will still be 110 doublets. In order to liquidate them people will lower prices or they will resort to vendoring them.

It will still be possible to sell your doublets but demand will be so low, and supply will be so high that the value for doing so will plummet.

And as rank gets higher the amount of each item needed will increase dramatically... to the point where you will run out of inventory space and need to liquidate several times before you can progress a rank.

[darkstarpoet1]

I agree that consumables will always sell better than non-consumables. But thanks to the Armory System there are more consumers of non-consumables than appear at first glance. When I start ranking my Thaumaturge I'm going to need equipment. The equipment that I used to rank Gladiator simply won't work. I'll need to buy a new set of equipment again.

Plus, with the introduction of the Materia System, equipment starts becoming consumable. Yes they won't be consumed at the rate of crystals or food or potions, but they will start leaving the economy.

but that's where the issue lies. you have not ranked thm yet so you don' have gear for it already, but tons have. not only are the crafters competing with each other in making and selling, but they are also competing with the people that have already ranked the class and moved on to their next set of gear. once the finished gear is made once it stays in the market because they are not spirit bound(sorry for the mention of another game) nor do they get destroyed over time. that means once you rank your thm you may be using an item that's been used by multiple people since day 1 of the game.

you do bring up a good point about the materia system, but you also have to wonder even if you make one item into materia you will still only need one of a certain type of clothing and not thousands of them.

edit: i would like to point out a few people from the last few posts. ferth and sorel i have been in the forums since they opened and would like to point out you 2 for not agreeing and actually having a legit conversation of the differences without the flame and troll posts that are so common. good job guys/girls.

[TheVedis]

not only that veds, but once you take into account how many hempen doublets could one person use? you use one and then you move on. yes, as new people join the game that one person will need one more, but it will likely be someone that has already used the item and just doesn't want to npc it so gets some super cheap price for their old gear or just tosses theirs to them.

since i see alchemist as r50 my logical question is how many thermal alembics have you bought? one maybe 2(if you want a backup).

in that same time i wonder how many earth shards you used ranking up your armorer? 50,000+?

i wasn't pointing out you specifically, because i don't disagree with your point i just wanted to expand on it.

i actualy bought 0....
i made my own

and yeah shards were painful for armoror lol


but in the end the problem is, as i said, people dont need 5000 canvas doublets, they dont need 10000 linen hats
or any item

right now, the market sells really well having 10-20 of any item on it at a given time, more then that and you end up with uber undercut wars in which no seller wins, and it gets to the point where you are losing money(and at that point you stop making gear cuz you odnt profit off it)

in the new system, people will be grinding on gear, whatever gear gets deemed the "leveling recipe" is gonna become worthless overnight, while those that do have more materials to them will at least be more competitive on the market(more people can make them but wont unless they wanna sell them specificaly, and those types dont make a ton of them)

[darkstarpoet1]

i actualy bought 0....
i made my own

and yeah shards were painful for armoror lol


but in the end the problem is, as i said, people dont need 5000 canvas doublets, they dont need 10000 linen hats
or any item

right now, the market sells really well having 10-20 of any item on it at a given time, more then that and you end up with uber undercut wars in which no seller wins, and it gets to the point where you are losing money(and at that point you stop making gear cuz you odnt profit off it)

in the new system, people will be grinding on gear, whatever gear gets deemed the "leveling recipe" is gonna become worthless overnight, while those that do have more materials to them will at least be more competitive on the market(more people can make them but wont unless they wanna sell them specificaly, and those types dont make a ton of them)

another thing to look at is over time with the vendor wars over price to sell the item first. ok i want to go and make my own cotton robe. i look up the materials including shards and realize i can make it myself for 12k. i then look at the wards and realize the bidding war has taken the price down to 5k just to sell the item off. i realize by just buying it in the wards i save 7k gil. does that give me an incentive to craft or does that give me the incentive to stay away from crafting because it starts looking like a major gil sync?

[TheVedis]

another thing to look at is over time with the vendor wars over price to sell the item first. ok i want to go and make my own cotton robe. i look up the materials including shards and realize i can make it myself for 12k. i then look at the wards and realize the bidding war has taken the price down to 5k just to sell the item off. i realize by just buying it in the wards i save 7k gil. does that give me an incentive to craft or does that give me the incentive to stay away from crafting because it starts looking like a major gil sync?

it gives you a reason not to craft that item honestly
as long as we have a large ammount of finished items, there will always be something to make that others dont want to

what this change affects the most are the items that people are going to want to level on vs selling them

[Ferth]

another thing to look at is over time with the vendor wars over price to sell the item first. ok i want to go and make my own cotton robe. i look up the materials including shards and realize i can make it myself for 12k. i then look at the wards and realize the bidding war has taken the price down to 5k just to sell the item off. i realize by just buying it in the wards i save 7k gil. does that give me an incentive to craft or does that give me the incentive to stay away from crafting because it starts looking like a major gil sync?

That's a really good point.

[Kel]

another thing to look at is over time with the vendor wars over price to sell the item first. ok i want to go and make my own cotton robe. i look up the materials including shards and realize i can make it myself for 12k. i then look at the wards and realize the bidding war has taken the price down to 5k just to sell the item off. i realize by just buying it in the wards i save 7k gil. does that give me an incentive to craft or does that give me the incentive to stay away from crafting because it starts looking like a major gil sync?

This is the core problem for crafters, especially for new players who wants to craft. And that's why I really do not favor the planned changes.

I agree to the devs for simplifying recipes for low rank items, but simplification itself is not the way to make a game better. More importantly, they should let new crafters learn how to craft.

For example, they can:
1. Make an in-game recipe encyclopedia to let crafters' life easier;
2. State more clearly on the recipe page of what level of craftmanship or magic craftmasnship attributes are required or which one is favored for certain recipe;
3. Make all part recipe rank of a certain finished item equal or below the recipe rank of the finished item. (sorry about my English...) e.g. All recipes of parts for a R30 weapon should be R30- recipes, instead of with 1 or 2 particular parts need a R50 crafter to make.

These are what I can think of for the better of the game, but not just simply abolishing this and then abolishing that. That is irresponsible and not helpful. (By the chance to say I hate the decision they made for simply abolishing repair mats so that I have to pay 5k to repair every time although I am a R50 crafter, oh, and do not mention how many mats ppl vendered to NPC)

One more point of view, for high rank items, e.g. 40+, I believe they could make the recipes for finished items even more complicated, or better think of some way to make items dissapear, like drop off due to death (of course at a very low probability), or be totally broken when add materia on it, etc. The purpose is to make items more treasurable so that prices will stop dropping, i.e. to blalance demand and supply.

Everyone knows why governments make so much efforts to activate economy: they do not wish to see economic recessions, during which period consumers are less willingly to spend, and in turn producers are less willings to create, and sometimes that will be a vicious circle.

It's the same in game, I always believe besides making the game more fun, the devs do should think of how to fix the economic recession we're experiencing now.

Do not wish new joiners after PS3 release would have passion to produce/create if the economic state has not been improved. Even if they would bring new demands to stimulate the economy, I don't think the situation could last for long.

It's the problem of the economy operation mechanism of FFXIV, and that could not be fixed by simply abolishing something like the parts.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

did people forget already?

Materia is made from armor and weapons, so even gear is now "consumable"

[Wynn]

did people forget already?

Materia is made from armor and weapons, so even gear is now "consumable"

This is actually a good point and has merit, but I'm not so sure it will have the same impact. How long does it take to convert something into materia? How much does one really need? I can go through a metric ton of arrowshafts. I doubt I'd ever sell as many hempen doublets to turn into materia as those. I certainly wouldn't buy as many.

[Ferth]

did people forget already?

Materia is made from armor and weapons, so even gear is now "consumable"

But how consumable will it be? Unless it has just an absolutely ridiculously short period of acclimation it won't nearly make up for the abundance we will see in a system where crafters have to grind finished items.

In the current system it could be a nice amelioration, and depending on the variance in a piece of gear turning into a specific materia it could create more demand for lower ranked gear. But if the system changes to one where crafters have to grind finished items the supply will always far outstrip the demand for those key items.

How many people do you see selling any sort of wooden mask? Hardly any, because they make so many that even trying to sell a few to other players is a waste of time and energy. Even when those masks can be used to make materia there is no way that each mask could be turned into a materia fast enough to make people hold on to them. Then you have to consider if the materia it makes is even worth the effort. It might save a few of the masks from being vendored but it won't create demand for all of them.