o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[MariyaShidou]

They haven't abolished the crafting system. You're exaggerating the situation and making an argument out of nothing. My point stands. They are trying to streamline the crafting system in order to alleviate pressures on the inventory and (someone else had mentioned) that since they are introducing some expansion to the crafting (Materia) that it would be prudent to make sure you don't have an overly complex system. Unless SE adds a way to expand inventory (2 retainers isn't helping and I'm up to 8 retainers) and guarantee the number of active players throughout each time zone, there isn't going to be one popular solution. Also, "again" implies that I've been pushing a type of argument repeatedly. Not sure if you need glasses for a deficient vision, but what you quoted was my very first response in this thread (this particular post is now my second)

Too many parts and too little inventory: Instead of making a better inventory system, let's abolish parts.
Parts are sometimes too high level compared to finished item: Instead of fixing the level needed, let's abolish parts.
Ul'dah ward is stuffed with various things, but Gridania and LL wards are empty: Instead of making all the wards linked as a temp solution, let's abolish parts so people don't need to use wards.
Synthesis is too slow and spam buttons: Instead of making a more transparent process, a better mini game, address the lag after every action, let's abolish parts so you don't synth parts.

And you are telling me that I am exaggerating?

[Aeyis]

Thread summary tl;dr:

Don't dumb down crafting untill after the market ward/ah system has been improved/implemented and we can actually see how crafting works out with a usable economy.

[Holland]

Too many parts and too little inventory: Instead of making a better inventory system, let's abolish parts.
Parts are sometimes too high level compared to finished item: Instead of fixing the level needed, let's abolish parts.
Ul'dah ward is stuffed with various things, but Gridania and LL wards are empty: Instead of making all the wards linked as a temp solution, let's abolish parts so people don't need to use wards.
Synthesis is too slow and spam buttons: Instead of making a more transparent process, a better mini game, address the lag after every action, let's abolish parts so you don't synth parts.

And you are telling me that I am exaggerating?

Yes, you are exaggerating things. You are basing your aguments on one detail revealed on the Crafting overhaul. You are saying the whole crafting overhaul = removing parts.

~ You have no details on how high level recipes will be addressed
~ You have no details on how the Materia system will affect the complexity of the crafting system as a whole
~ You have no details when they will address the mini-game process to make it less repetitive (though they have already confirmed they will review this)

All they are doing is removing a time consuming (not for the better), bothersome step of the crafting process. Its FFXI all over again, where most mechanics were time consuming just for the sake of it, not because they added a necessary layer of complexity and strategy to it.

[Sorel]

Similar arguments and generalizations were made against Auto-Attack and the abolishment of the Stamina Bar. Statements like "overkill", "game-breaking", "gutting", "nerfing", "easy-button" as well as arguments like "it doesn't solve the problem" and "it will still be boring" were made.

I think the Development Team demonstrated in that instance that they could implement Auto-Attack and remove what was a principal feature of the combat system without ruining the game.

I understand everyone's concern. But please remember that the crafting system ... like the combat system ... doesn't have just one problem. It has a set of problems. The removal of parts addresses one of those problems. The simplification of the dyeing process addresses another of those problems. The addition of the Materia System addresses a third.

One of the issues that has been mentioned frequently by members of the community is the Standard-spamming-boredom problem. Hopefully on Tuesday, Naoki Yoshida will tell us what the Development Team has come up with to deal with that.

In the meantime, I would politely suggest that we don't go too far around the bend with the apocalyptic generalizations just because we were given a 512-word outline of the changes coming to recipes, instead of a 2000-word one encompassing every change being made to the entire crafting system.

[Amineri]

Similar arguments and generalizations were made against Auto-Attack and the abolishment of the Stamina Bar. Statements like "overkill", "game-breaking", "gutting", "nerfing", "easy-button" as well as arguments like "it doesn't solve the problem" and "it will still be boring" were made.

In the meantime, I would politely suggest that we don't go too far around the bend with the apocalyptic generalizations just because we were given a 512-word outline of the changes coming to recipes, instead of a 2000-word one encompassing every change being made to the entire crafting system.

I agree completely that there has been a lot of overreaction. However, the dev team did post up these proposed changes (with a dev tag) specifically in order to elicit feedback. Some of us have been attempting to provide feedback, actual feedback, expressing how we think these changes would affect ourselves, and the game, along with our reasoning/thoughts.

However, I do wish the the severe divisions and name-calling would slow down a bit. It's understandable that people have strong opinions on the matter, and I think that it's a good thing that people are attached enough to the game to express some passion. It would just be nice to see that passion turned to the creative use of providing solid feedback, rather then trying to abuse other players. Ah, well.

One of the issues that has been mentioned frequently by members of the community is the Standard-spamming-boredom problem. Hopefully on Tuesday, Naoki Yoshida will tell us what the Development Team has come up with to deal with that.

Regarding this, it's my belief that the current mini-game is perfectly adequate for the purpose of making items that are intended for player use. In that case there is actual involvement, attempting to maximize quality (for materials) or balance higher quality with remaining durability for touch-ups (for items). Further, the number of items typically produced in a day is small enough (because of the limits of economic demand) that the crafting mini-game needn't get boring. Even now, after spamming my fair share of synths for rank-up purposes, attempting to create an HQ item can still get me involved in the mini-game.

I believe that the issue is in using the same mechanic as a rank-up mechanism. As a method of ranking up, the crafting mini-game is wholly inadequate. The only goal is to complete the synthesis, since the SP generated does NOT depend on finish quality/durability. This (in part) is what makes it into a mindless exercise.

As I recall the original design goals from Tanaka, crafting classes were to have (small) parts to play in battle, and I believe that THIS was intended to be one of the primary forms of ranking up a crafting class. However, those plans fell through (for whatever reason), and we were left with only the crafting mini-game as a ranking up mechanic.

I would suggest that we don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater", and simply toss the crafting mini-game because it is poorly suited for ranking up. Instead, new mechanics for ranking up should be added. Perhaps something along the lines of what DoctorMog posted here, with crafters operating and repairing artillery during a large-scale boss fight.

[Blue79]

dev tags are just a token, not meant for real interaction

if you think they're going to scrap their ideas and efforts based on player feedback lol you don't know SE

edit:
lol should have replied with quote

[Holland]

dev tags are just a token, not meant for real interaction

if you think they're going to scrap their ideas and efforts based on player feedback lol you don't know SE

edit:
lol should have replied with quote

I believe this might be a little outdated thinking on your part. I will agree that even before implementing the idea, if they think is good, no they will not scrap it. But after is implemented, if it does not have the intended results after being tested by players, yes they will address issues through feedback. SE has changed a lot since this fiasco.

[Blue79]

I believe this might be a little outdated thinking on your part. I will agree that even before implementing the idea, if they think is good, no they will not scrap it. But after is implemented, if it does not have the intended results after being tested by players, yes they will address issues through feedback. SE has changed a lot since this fiasco.

I agree that they've made a lot of changes and are working hard to make it better but imo it doesn't matter if 100 players or 100,000 players think nerfing crafting is a bad idea. The fact is they've been working on the upcoming changes and will implement them no matter what we say under dev tags. As for 'intended results', maybe this is just my opinion again but that's what test servers are for but regardless SE never backtracks. Once a change is made they may make more changes but they'll never say "whoops, that didn't work, we're putting x back the way it was before".

[MariyaShidou]

You know why I have been making reference to NGE? Because, when Sony broked SWG, no matter how many adjustment attempts they made after that or goodwill gesture they did (Trial of Obi Wan refunds), they were doomed. Players didn't exactly stick around and wait for adjustment patches, they were gone, forever. So General Wait-and-see tactic will not likely do here, when the Wait-and-see population would be already too low.

[Wynn]

The one plus to all this is that the dev team have shown they are more than willing to make changes again if they feel they "went too far" or it didn't turn out the way they hoped. So crafters, just make sure you guys are giving your feedback when the changes come.