o.O Overkill on the crafting Dumb down?

[Esk]

@ Geesus

Been here since beta.
I was talking about detailed ideas once they have some they want to move forward with, not just were gona change stuff.. Then poof here you go!
They have no idea what people were thinking and I doubt more then 10% thought anything alike when they answered that question at the time.
I was think I'd love to see the world more dark, sinister and hostile, with classic FF style content and weapons (FFV/VIII)..
I knew it wouldn't happen like that, but we needed changes and more so we needed content and a better direction.

I'm not a crafter really I find it to slow for my taste.
(and this change will do nothing to improve or change that at all)
But I don't want to see the game dumbed down to the point where the people i enjoy playing with that primarily craft are leaving.
(an they will most likely be leaving, as SE will probably go ahead with this)
And to them this isn't a small loss, its like the DoW/M being told you can use cross class skills, or we get only 1 class and have to go to a town to change classes.

[Geesus]

@ Geesus

Been here since beta.
I was talking about detailed ideas once they have some they want to move forward with, not just were gona change stuff.. Then poof here you go!
They have no idea what people were thinking and I doubt more then 10% thought anything alike when they answered that question at the time.
I was think I'd love to see the world more dark, sinister and hostile, with classic FF style content and weapons (FFV/VIII)..
I knew it wouldn't happen like that, but we needed changes and more so we needed content and a better direction.

I'm not a crafter really I find it to slow for my taste.
(and this change will do nothing to improve or change that at all)
But I do not want to see the game dumbed down to the point where people i enjoy playingwith leave.
(and will likely with this going ahead as im sure it will)
And to them this isn't a small loss, its like the DoW/M being told you can use cross class skills, or we get only 1 class and have to go to a town to change classes.

Then I go back to my original statement that you needed to be more vocal. Some people out there beat you or your friends who this seems to hurt the most and spoke louder in the forums then all. I want someone to explain how simplifiyng the crafting system.....no I retract that... STREAMLINING the crafting system is dumbing it down? If you had to go out in the field for battle and you had to do this:

1 choose weapon
2 choose hand to use with weapon
3 grab weapon
4 remove weapon from sheath
5 prepare weapon for striking

If THOSE were the steps needed for you to attack a foe and I mean actually prompted for this JUST like the old craft system use to be, would you consider it dumbing it down if they turned around and made it as it is now?

As for you asking me about the classes, ummm in XI you HAD to go back to town to change your classes LOLOL. And yes, it sucked. But, I played it for 3 years and to this DAY, love that game. So sorry, no bites on that one.

[Kiote]

Then I go back to my original statement that you needed to be more vocal. Some people out there beat you or your friends who this seems to hurt the most and spoke louder in the forums then all. I want someone to explain how simplifiyng the crafting system.....no I retract that... STREAMLINING the crafting system is dumbing it down? If you had to go out in the field for battle and you had to do this:

1 choose weapon
2 choose hand to use with weapon
3 grab weapon
4 remove weapon from sheath
5 prepare weapon for striking

If THOSE were the steps needed for you to attack a foe and I mean actually prompted for this JUST like the old craft system use to be, would you consider it dumbing it down if they turned around and made it as it is now?

As for you asking me about the classes, ummm in XI you HAD to go back to town to change your classes LOLOL. And yes, it sucked. But, I played it for 3 years and to this DAY, love that game. So sorry, no bites on that one.

You do have to do all those things, every time you fight. but they actually streamlined that process. They did not decide well since five steps is too many we'll just remove benifits from guilds and not require the player to use any other classes abilites.

[Geesus]

You do have to do all those things, every time you fight. but the actually streamlined that process. They did not decide well since five steps is too many we'll just remove benifits from guilds and not require the player to use any other classes abilites.

Ok Kiote...you win. You're right...if you had to actually tell your character to do each one of those steps instead of just clicking X on your feaking keyboard or your Gamepad, you'd enjoy the game more.

There's a time you have to choose your battles Kiote...this is not one of them for me. You only read MY statement apparently and not the one for which I was replying too. Nor did you answer the question I posed. All you did was continue to QQ instead of actually posing a more defined reason for your problem. AND if you even READ my posts, I have said at LEAST twice that I don't agree with them removing the guilds or crafting facilities or removing ANY abilities so your barking up the wrong tree.

[Kiote]

Ok Kiote...you win. You're right...if you had to actually tell your character to do each one of those steps instead of just clicking X on your feaking keyboard or your Gamepad, you'd enjoy the game more.

There's a time you have to choose your battles Kiote...this is not one of them for me. You only read MY statement apparently and not the one for which I was replying too. Nor did you answer the question I posed. All you did was continue to QQ instead of actually posing a more defined reason for your problem. AND if you even READ my posts, I have said at LEAST twice that I don't agree with them removing the guilds or crafting facilities or removing ANY abilities so your barking up the wrong tree.

I didn't quote you to pick a Fight I quoted you because you proved my point. You don't fix a systems by Ripping out it's guts. You fix a problem by streamlining repetitive actions. If they want future players to enjoy crafting they will have no choice but to build a new crafting UI. Not rip apart the recipes and remove all the benefits of being a cross class crafter.

[Amineri]

Then I go back to my original statement that you needed to be more vocal. Some people out there beat you or your friends who this seems to hurt the most and spoke louder in the forums then all. I want someone to explain how simplifiyng the crafting system.....no I retract that... STREAMLINING the crafting system is dumbing it down? If you had to go out in the field for battle and you had to do this:

You asked for an example of how streamlining the system "dumbs it down". To be fair, the quoted phrase is not one that I would have chosen, but anyhow.

I give here a detailed example, compiled all from memory (only meaning to demonstrated that I very much love this aspect of the game).

Velveteen Robes

Velveteen Robe consists of the following parts:
Velveteen robe front
Velveteen robe back
Velveteen sleeves
Silver breastpin
Buffalo Leather Shoulderguards
Buffalo Leather Strap
Cotton Yarn

The robe front is made from 3 pieces of velveteen, and one piece of cotton. Why a piece of cotton? It represents the undertime portion of the robe (the part below the hem), and the portion that is visible in the front, underneath the slightly parted opening. For a black robe, which cotton cloth is used, but other colors use different colors.

The robe is made from 4 pieces of velveteen, as there is no special feature on the back of the robe.

The sleeves are made from 2 pieces of velveteen, making up the bulk of the sleeves (other decoration is added later in the assembly step).

The silver breastpin can clearly be seen on the front of the chest of the final product. Cotton robes did not have chest ornaments. Chest ornaments were added starting with brass ornaments on canvas robes.

Buffalo shoulderguards are clearly seen on the finish product.

Buffalo leather strap is used to make the leather lacing on the top of each of the sleeves.

Cotton yarn is used to complete the final assembly.

In the end, every part or material used is actually reflected in the final item. In addition, every feature of the item is reflected by the inclusion of a part of material in the recipe. In this way you could look at an item in-game and get a sense of what the recipe would be.

As an example of THAT, the vintage robe. I'm not quite sure what shade the outer linen portion is, I'd guess deepsea-blue. The underrobe is a vivid shade of red, which is almost assuredly velveteen red. The chest ornament has been upgraded to a gold ornament instead of silver. Further, the shoulderguards and leather lacings on the arms match up with toad leather. Finally, there was the addition of another ornament, the leather cuffs on the sleeves that the end, which leather matches up with the leather on the shoulders.

This system pretty much tosses that out.
I foresee:
Velveteen Robe
1 velveteen cloth
1 buffalo leather
1 silver ingot
1 cotton yarn

In my eyes, this makes the system less deep and enjoyable. I guess I should be used to that, though. I enjoy mathematics in-and-of-itself, and 99% of the population despises that as well. With the new mass tyranny seeming to take place in video games, I shall not find myself a home, and I'm sure you'll be just as happy with me not being there.

[Geesus]

You asked for an example of how streamlining the system "dumbs it down". To be fair, the quoted phrase is not one that I would have chosen, but anyhow.

I give here a detailed example, compiled all from memory (only meaning to demonstrated that I very much love this aspect of the game).

Velveteen Robes

Velveteen Robe consists of the following parts:
Velveteen robe front
Velveteen robe back
Velveteen sleeves
Silver breastpin
Buffalo Leather Shoulderguards
Buffalo Leather Strap
Cotton Yarn

Ok, I removed the other stuff just because while detailed and informative, I didn't want to flood your section and mine as then next War and Peace. lol So, I understnad the realism behind what needed to be done in order to create that item and SOOO many more in the game and thought it WAS cool. The problem with that system is what so many others have explained, the need for a Rank to create one of those pieces may have been to high when compared to the piece itself OR the other jobs included in making the piece. THAT makes no sense. If it's a Rank 30 crafting (Wvr) piece ( I don't really know just giving an example) then the rest of the sub jobs should be that same rank. Otherwise it's NOT really a Rnk 30 piece because you need R46 Bsm in order to make something on it. Therefore it should be R46 as that is the next highest and needed Rank to make the whole damn thing work. Because without your Bsm being close to 46, you can't complete it so why tease someone and get them excited to finally make that epic piece only to be slapped and HA HAAAA thrown in your face? Does that make sense?

[Amineri]

Ok, I removed the other stuff just because while detailed and informative, I didn't want to flood your section and mine as then next War and Peace. lol So, I understnad the realism behind what needed to be done in order to create that item and SOOO many more in the game and thought it WAS cool. The problem with that system is what so many others have explained, the need for a Rank to create one of those pieces may have been to high when compared to the piece itself OR the other jobs included in making the piece. THAT makes no sense. If it's a Rank 30 crafting (Wvr) piece ( I don't really know just giving an example) then the rest of the sub jobs should be that same rank. Otherwise it's NOT really a Rnk 30 piece because you need R46 Bsm in order to make something on it. Therefore it should be R46 as that is the next highest and needed Rank to make the whole damn thing work. Because without your Bsm being close to 46, you can't complete it so why tease someone and get them excited to finally make that epic piece only to be slapped and HA HAAAA thrown in your face? Does that make sense?

That completely makes sense, and I 100% agree that it needed to be adjusted. I can even go you one better. Here's an example of a completely ridiculous recipe that ABSOLUTELY needed to be changed.

White Skillet:
Armorer 25 (appr) to create
White Skillet is a rank 17 CUL mainhand tool (yes seventeen)
Ingredients:
Iron Plate (to make the pan)
Tin Ingot (to make the handle)
White Enamel (inside of pan)
Blue Enamel (outside of pan)

It makes a pretty-looking pan. The ARM rank might be too high, considering it's 8 ranks above the use rank. But, here is the realy problem: white enamel.

White stainsand only can be obtained from a grade five quarry point in Coerthas. There is EXACTLY one quarry point in the entire world that you can get it from. This means pretty much a rank35+ miner to get the stainsand. Plus it's a rare drop. Plus, the cave is guarded by r45+ gigantoads and r40+ ghosts. Then once you have the stainsand, it's a rank 45 ALC synth to make the white enamel. I was lucky enough to get two stainsands, because my r48 ALC LSmate blew up the first one.

This recipe is clearly broken. The difficulty involved clearly puts the price far beyond what a typical rank 17 CUL should be expected to pay.

However, instead of just adjusting the recipes, they are massively wholesale reducing the to the simplest of all existing recipes. Recipes like Walnut Masks, or Oak Canes will now be every recipe. Some recipes were too easy to acquire materials for, and the result was too good ([item]Jade Crook[/item], for example). Instead of balancing it out so that lower rank recipes were simpler, and the higher rank items (that needed it) were more complex, every recipe in the game seems to be drastically simplified.

[Geesus]

That completely makes sense, and I 100% agree that it needed to be adjusted. I can even go you one better. Here's an example of a completely ridiculous recipe that ABSOLUTELY needed to be changed.

White Skillet:
Armorer 25 (appr) to create
White Skillet is a rank 17 CUL mainhand tool (yes seventeen)
Ingredients:
Iron Plate (to make the pan)
Tin Ingot (to make the handle)
White Enamel (inside of pan)
Blue Enamel (outside of pan)

It makes a pretty-looking pan. The ARM rank might be too high, considering it's 8 ranks above the use rank. But, here is the realy problem: white enamel.

White stainsand only can be obtained from a grade five quarry point in Coerthas. There is EXACTLY one quarry point in the entire world that you can get it from. This means pretty much a rank35+ miner to get the stainsand. Plus it's a rare drop. Plus, the cave is guarded by r45+ gigantoads and r40+ ghosts. Then once you have the stainsand, it's a rank 45 ALC synth to make the white enamel. I was lucky enough to get two stainsands, because my r48 ALC LSmate blew up the first one.

This recipe is clearly broken. The difficulty involved clearly puts the price far beyond what a typical rank 17 CUL should be expected to pay.

However, instead of just adjusting the recipes, they are massively wholesale reducing the to the simplest of all existing recipes. Recipes like Walnut Masks, or Oak Canes will now be every recipe. Some recipes were too easy to acquire materials for, and the result was too good ([item]Jade Crook[/item], for example). Instead of balancing it out so that lower rank recipes were simpler, and the higher rank items (that needed it) were more complex, every recipe in the game seems to be drastically simplified.

Agree. But apparently then either people felt that this was the direction SE needed to take OR SE misunderstood what was being reqeusted. I can't answer that only the Dev(s) or Yoshi can. Personally it still sounds ridiculous the things that need to be done in order to make certain items such as the one you used as an example and that's been my quandry since OB. I would be excited because I was ranking up Wvr to make a cowl only to find out... oh sh*t, I need to be rank WHAT to make that sleeve?! O.o Wtf?

Alot of this is why I didn't take to crafting that much in XI. I reached a really low crafter level in certain crafts just to make easy crap that sold like gang busters on the AH. I made decent gil but the rest was way to annoying and nowhere NEAR fun. I felt different with XIV's system until the above mentioned happened.

[Esk]

Then I go back to my original statement that you needed to be more vocal. Some people out there beat you or your friends who this seems to hurt the most and spoke louder in the forums then all. I want someone to explain how simplifiyng the crafting system.....no I retract that... STREAMLINING the crafting system is dumbing it down? If you had to go out in the field for battle and you had to do this:

1 choose weapon
2 choose hand to use with weapon
3 grab weapon
4 remove weapon from sheath
5 prepare weapon for striking

If THOSE were the steps needed for you to attack a foe and I mean actually prompted for this JUST like the old craft system use to be, would you consider it dumbing it down if they turned around and made it as it is now?

As for you asking me about the classes, ummm in XI you HAD to go back to town to change your classes LOLOL. And yes, it sucked. But, I played it for 3 years and to this DAY, love that game. So sorry, no bites on that one.

OK The title Probably was the best choice I'll grant you that, but i had just had 2 people ranting about it on coms in my ear and I happened to agree.

And I never had a reason to be vocal until now, as i said, if they had put the details out sooner, I'm sure people would have been more vocal sooner.
I rarely bother with speculation threads, as I cant read Japanese easily and most of the slightly more adult discussion happen in those forums.
But I always try to post when we have anything detailed to post on.

Class changing was just an example , it wouldn't bother me either, I play eve :P this game is simple lol, but I'm sure you can Imagen the non FFXIV players outcry a changes of that type.
(an the other one was more what i figured was in line with this.)

Combat, yes I agree its far to easy, and need to be made much more challenging.
So no argument at all really in that. But what your saying isn't the same really.
The actions are just compacted in the combat system.
IMO a more accurate change in combat to the new crafting system would be removing WS options we have during combat
Enter combat >> attack mob (only options being attack/defend/WS) >> end combat.

Streamlining crafting isnt removing a massive section of the crafting.
Its making the whole process simpler and more fun to do in general.

Ok another thing ive not gone into before in this thread.
The crafting interface is bad, if people just selected a recipe from a book that would make it a huge amount simpler (a tree diagram in the book to make all the components and final item?)