Dungeons & Time limits.

[Oscillate_Wildly]

Discussing with my LS tonight about what we loved so much about boss battles in XI it made me think about the time limit in Toto-Rak and Darkhold. I like the idea of the time limit, it gives the team a sense of urgency and the need to push forward. However, if something goes wrong like an inopportune group death, or RL event, it can set back your group the past 30 minutes you spent getting somewhere.

It made me wonder why we don't have pre-boss clock stopper areas, or the idea that maybe in the future we can bring along craftable items to shove into key slots to give our team an extra 15 minutes at certain check points. Something to help out the average player without just getting rid of the time limit themselves.

I do not mind the difficulty of the Ogre battle, in fact once you get the hang of it, it's quite simple. However, with a batch of players who have more real life limitations (and most nights or weeks even, a one run limit) it's disheartening that once we get there and lose either due to mistakes, incompetence, R0ing , the only way to get back up there and try again is to run back through the corridors waiting for weakness to wear, while watching as it takes us 5-10+ minutes to make it back to the Ogre. At that point, most call it and head to bed for work in the morning.

Darkhold currently is unforgiving to the point where the more casual players who might only have 1 run in them a night, don't have a lot of time to practice. Most PUGs I've joined in my off time have no idea what it is they're supposed to do because they haven't been given a fighting chance to try-try again in a short amount of time, or don't have the proper Linkshell to back them up.

If it meant an automatic time penalty to get up at weakness outside the Ogre battle to try once more (and only once more before having to leave) I would take it. But I'm having a hard time getting my linkshell enough chances at this within one night since it takes so long to climb up back up.

So this isn't about boss difficulty, or melee set up, rather about time management for casual players who might more than one shot at the Ogre or future boss battle content.

Perhaps not on Darkhold, but for future dungeon content to have safe areas we can recuperate like in XI would be great. To be honest, the timer can be a bit of a pest, to have an area we could stand in with the timer off (No progression, just rest area) like the safe zones outside of Promy, we'd be a whole lot better off to explain what we're going to do next.
So, for discussion's sake, please be kind and don't tout such things like "They don't deserve to beat the content" or "Tough luck", it's possible to make the content in the present and future difficult without restricting it with Timers.

Further more to the argument about chests, I'll say this. If anything give Dungeons a "Time bonus" to chests, which we currently have. Fighting such and such so fast gives extra chest or better chance at gear drops. Getting to an area in a time limit without setting off traps spawns such and such chest, limiting how many chests one can get to in one run.
Much like that, while still making it accessible and giving users the feeling they've accomplished something.

[Zhinse]

Those are some interesting observations in that giant wall.

It's true that screwing up a little would cause the whole run to be null and void especially for groups going for the speed run chest. I'm on summer vacation right now so i have plenty of time to go through these dungeons over and over now but later on when i go back to school i won't be so fortunate. However i guess that content will continue to be engaging for longer as a trade off... i guess i'm okay with that.

A rest area or ways to Add time to your clock would be a neato gameplay mechanic. Sometimes you need a breather. I personally do not like having the last chest be time based, as it does force us to map memorize instead of strategize. If There were some type of scoring system i think it would be better and more puzzles, battle puzzles to reward.

I am having a lot of fun with the dungeon though. As LNC, you really do learn more and more everytime you fight the bosses, getting better at doing the thing you do. the battles are flexible enough to try different things like Pug tank, THM kite and many other things. The only problem is to find the right people who are willing to try different things and suggestions.

[Estellios]

Yo Zhinse! =) I agree with you on the time chest thing. There's no way you'll even see that without skipping everything which defeats the purpose of a dungeon.

To chime in on the topic, I think the time limit for the dungeons is part of the challenge that they are intended to be when done at-rank, and it's challenge that is needed in this game. I don't think any way to extend the time limit is a good idea, but I wouldn't be against it's implementation. Personally if some RL thing comes up the group should accept it, continue on or exit and replace them if they are doing another run. Stuff happens and that's one of the reasons why the ability to reenter immediately is wonderful.

As far as taking breaks goes, that's one of the reason I like the time limit being set at 1 hour and not being extendable. You know exactly how much time to set aside and if you are doing multiple runs you should just plan ahead and take breaks in between runs.

Also, having a set time limit makes it a lot easier to balance and test the dungeons, so they can come out with new ones more often =)

[Xatsh]

A rest point I am ok with, time extentions in the dungeons current form... I say no. Time is a major factor in the challenge which should not be removed in my opinion. To conquer that objective you need a "no mistakes run" which is very very needed in a game that was 100% mindless zerg with a near 100% success rate before the dungeons.

I would like to see dungeons with multiple fights, and paths where you can extend time. Maby a 45min/1hr dungeon with 2 optional 15 min time extensions to attempt a side goal or something.

[Zhinse]

hey estellios!

One thing that does kind of bother me about Time limit isn't about the gameplay, but the context. If i was going through a dungeon personally or in a lot of other games, it would benefit us to take our time and tread carefully. There's no story reason for why we have to rush through the dungeon, but then again there's no story reason for treasure chests to pop out of nowhere either.

The future raids are going to be interesting beasts and i hope they do not settle with the Dzemeal Darkhold model for every dungeon. With the company system we will probably see a return of different missions for the same dungeon, for example the beastmen stronghold. Hopefully they treat time differently and come up with other mechanics to judge your run.

[Meow_Zedong]

^Umm, there is a story reason for the time limit. Both places are next to portals to the Void, if you are there for longer than 60 minutes at a time you will become sick with Void energy and could die. The guys says it to you pretty much every time you enter.

[SilvertearRen]

^Umm, there is a story reason for the time limit. Both places are next to portals to the Void, if you are there for longer than 60 minutes at a time you will become sick with Void energy and could die. The guys says it to you pretty much every time you enter.

If you ask me, it's just an excuse for them to have a time limit. It's a very lousy excuse, to be honest since the Empire is found in there and they aren't dying at all to the Void.

[Zhinse]

^Umm, there is a story reason for the time limit. Both places are next to portals to the Void, if you are there for longer than 60 minutes at a time you will become sick with Void energy and could die. The guys says it to you pretty much every time you enter.

That is a story excuse i can buy .

You know there are a lot of people who lurk the forums that will vow that this is simple shit easy content and i know a lot more players who have a hard enough time getting past Ogre. Its summer, and people have time to throw themselves into the oven, over and over, until they figure things out. If this was during finals season for school or crunch time at work then as a playerbase we'd be 1-1.5 of a weeks of progress behind than we have now.

Me and my group of friends are starting to get to that point of having almost everything that the dungeon has to offer and we're a month a way from the next patch D:. I think the right attitude for people who mess up their runs should take the remaining time they have to experiment or practice with no pressure. starting over and over again to run to Ogre isn't the funnest thing and i hope they look into that in the future, but if you mess up you should try the best you can anyways even if you have only time for 1 run. You might learn something new or get more comfortable.

[SilvertearRen]

I agree. There needs to be a limit on how difficult you make content that is intended to be universally accessible. My best recommendation is to adopt the difficulty-adjustment feature of the Guild Leves and apply that to the dungeons. That way, players can have an easier time in Dzemael at One-star, or if they want better drops, do it at Five-Stars which would be similar to how the dungeon is currently.

[Meow_Zedong]

They have been shown to have much better technology than us, they probably have a way around it. I never said it was a GOOD story excuse...but it is a legitimate reason.