Item level compression in Heavensward?

[Waliel]

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I think I understand it now - at least much better than previously. Cheers.

[Ashrak]

Yeah, i want to be up to date with my 15 year old gear.

[Osias_Qol]

All they need to do is slow down and minimize the ilvl increments, and slant the game towards a more horizontal model.

In my opinion Horizontal progression will never be able to work in this game the way people from say XI remember it working in that game.

In XI it was all about min maxing specific stats for specific skills or actions and so gear swapping via macros (precast, midcast, endcast, TPing, WSing, so on) was a big deal. It made horizontal progression a big deal.

In this game the stats are so streamlined with no way or need to change gear mid fight. What would they do to add horizontal progression that is meaningful?

They can add some kind of ability enhancements or set bonuses to make you consider raw stats or bonus but that is about all I can see with such a stream lined system.
They can start to bloat the game with new stats like double attack but some how I think they want to avoid that.

We have the BIS raid/tome gear. We have gear with materia slots allowing us to shoot for perfect stat weights. The rest is just to fill in gaps or for looks/fun.

Like WoW the system is just set up to be super vertical. It doesn't matter if you slow the vertical progression because the game is just not set up to make use of horizontal progression.

[Asael]

In my opinion Horizontal progression will never be able to work in this game the way people from say XI remember it working in that game.

Well no, of course not. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. The point being made, as far as I'm interpreting it, is simply to add in horizontal elements and features. Not a full overhaul into being FFXI-2.

Trying to implement a full horizontal model at this point wouldn't mix well with what's already here. It would be like tossing a bucket full of spiders onto a person with arachnophobia. It wouldn't go over well.

In this game the stats are so streamlined with no way or need to change gear mid fight. What would they do to add horizontal progression that is meaningful?

Indeed, but it really wouldn't matter though. As a bit of preliminary planning before entering a fight could solve that issue. Although I would imagine there would be certain gear pieces at some point (that due to their aspects) would be considered "must haves" and would ultimately end up seeing a lot of use. Either way, the great thing about this is that it gives a whole new level of variety to the game. In that there could be multiple ways of going about tackling content versus just equipping BiS, and then following some youtube guide.

They can add some kind of ability enhancements or set bonuses to make you consider raw stats or bonus but that is about all I can see with such a stream lined system.
They can start to bloat the game with new stats like double attack but some how I think they want to avoid that.

To be honest that's all they would really need though. All they need to do is basically find a sweet spot for item levels, say 200-250 (just throwing a number range out there). Beyond that just add in ideas that you just mentioned.

The benefit to this is that whenever a new expansion hits we can always keep the starting item levels for those expansions at a roughly standardized number. After that people can just progress as normal to the item level sweet spot, and use unique ability enhancements or special set bonuses to give the gear relevance. In this way the "catch up curve" for new incoming players is virtually non existent. All they need to do is play the main story line quests from the first game, and then progress into whichever expansion they want. The benefit to the veteran players is obvious in that we don't have to play the eternal treadmill game for gear that only gives a bland and uncreative stat boost.

[Renik]

snip

I would like to add something to your post and in response to others.

First thing is that Yoshi already confirmed that they were working on an idea to add specific stats to gear pieces, like traits or set bonuses, this is a first step for the hybrid system of vertical/horizontal progression.

And last, i always keep seeing the use of BiS, and how this would mean illusion of choice more than real choice, what this people fail to understand is how BiS is applied almost exclusively to hardcore raid groups, who are a minority in this game, in general horizontal gear progression offers choices to players, to pursue pieces of gear with close values which offer slight advantages on pair with the difficulty of the content that drops it, not everyone will have the time, the static or the skill to gear the BiS, but they will still be competent to play all the contents even if they don't have the BiS.

Ultimately, there are always preferences for play-styles, so even if there's a BiS one could chose to go for a different set to make the play style more comfortable, like chose if you want gear to make mudras have shorter recast, or an increase in ninjutsu potency, a way to enhance the damage caused by nin dots or the critical damage dealt by melee skills, there will always be a BiS, but the capacity to get or not get it, and the choice to play on a more comfortable way will always be there as well.

[Alipoprocks]

In my opinion Horizontal progression will never be able to work in this game the way people from say XI remember it working in that game.

In XI it was all about min maxing specific stats for specific skills or actions and so gear swapping via macros (precast, midcast, endcast, TPing, WSing, so on) was a big deal. It made horizontal progression a big deal.

Not many people want to gear swap again. But they could add content that drops equal statwise gear with w/e endgame is current but add a nice little bonus stat, a fun unique stat, and make it very difficult to obtain. Like for example, say, 100% chance of crit if (some thing) happens. Or 100% chance of taking zero damage, or possibly getting 50% of mp back. So that the gear is desirable but not overpowering.

That would give people more things to do endgame wise.

And it would be nice if they had increased the ilevels in lower increments but, meh.

As someone already mentioned, the gear treadmill is very stale. It is getting harder and harder to keep/find a static for end game. Plus with there not being much end game, people are losing desire to play.

[Dhex]

In this game the stats are so streamlined with no way or need to change gear mid fight. What would they do to add horizontal progression that is meaningful?

I can't switch gear mid fight obviously - but as a tank when I am running a dungeon I use a VIT set for trash pulls, and STR set for boss fights. I wear different equipment sets in different Turns of Coil depending on how much HP I actually need and the composition of the party. Horizontal itemization is already in the game it's just extremely limited. If they focused on broadening the gear & stat selection at end game rather then just putting in bigger numbers new gear every patch the game might be a bit more interesting.

[Osias_Qol]

To be honest that's all they would really need though. All they need to do is basically find a sweet spot for item levels, say 200-250 (just throwing a number range out there). Beyond that just add in ideas that you just mentioned.

If a new set bonus comes out that is better than the other it will still just replace all the gear as it does now. If a new 1 comes out and it sucks now you have nothing to look forward to or chase after. Maybe you end up with some choices but would it be any more than what we have now?

If all you want is gear to stay relevant longer well there is still Glamour which is a huge hit and drives tons of people to go after armor sets that otherwise are dead on arrive.

Catching up isn’t all that hard to be honest. I stopped playing for months. I came back and in a week I had the item level high enough to do relevant content with no problems. Sure as a fresh player you may have to spend more time in some older content to get some gear going before you start working on more relevant gear but do you really want a fresh 50 jumping into final coil where they will just outright fail? It is an extreme example but the point is having new people go through easier content allows them to get a little more accustom to what level 50 is before they start going nuts.

They could add content that drops equal statwise gear with w/e endgame is current but add a nice little bonus stat, a fun unique stat, and make it very difficult to obtain.

So just adding even more RNG onto the already super angering RNG to get the new BIS that is basically game changing once you have it. Now I may sound like I am ripping on your idea and I don’t mean to if I do. It makes me think of the second coil DRG head that I basically spammed the fight for for days and days.. I still don’t have it and it isn’t even a harder to get version. I gave up on it, it wasn’t worth me hating the world.

I guess what I am saying is this kind of idea would cause more fragmentation than we already have in my opinion.
Would it make farming content last longer? O I am sure it could do that. Would it make things better? Somehow I just don’t see it that way.

As a tank when I use different gear pending on what I am doing.

First off good on you for trying to maximize yourself as a tank. Sadly this kind of thing doesn’t translate very well to other rolls.

A Bard is not going to start bringing a STR set with them because they need to be in melee range in this fight so they better make there melee better.
A DRG isn’t going to start bringing a DEX set around with them because they disconnect a lot on this fight so they better buff up Piercing Talon.
I think healers are better off using cleric stance than bringing an INT set.
I usually have 3 sets, set up for my main. Hi ACC, Low ACC, Mix. With these 3 sets the less ACC the more of my DPS stats take its place. That is about the best most classes can do.

Adding more stats into the game allows for more gear choices. This thread has 2 topics going on in it. 1 is should I level be squished which is pointless. The other is should they change the way they are doing things.
So it is silly for me to sit here and say I don’t think they want to add more stats into the game because well that isn’t what is being discussed.

To that end sure adding more stats into the game adds more gear choice which adds more horizontal itemization. It still will just be like WoW in that there will always be a best stat combo. You will still have the stat priority that dominates what people go after. It will just make picking between lesser items take a little more thinking.

I am putting a spin on the answers I am giving. I am not trying to be a jerk or anything. I just feel like these kinds of things are easier said than done. I also just do not think this game can get off the vertical treadmill it is on without some huge sweeping changes.

[Dhex]

I just feel like these kinds of things are easier said than done. I also just do not think this game can get off the vertical treadmill it is on without some huge sweeping changes.

See the thing is they did it in reverse - before in v.1.22 there was no item level and no huge exponential vertical growth - you had special Job AF bonuses and ability modification, GC gear had stacking set bonuses, and Materia melds were to push certain aspect of a class to the absolute maximum. Then they gutted the stat system and removed specialty bonuses - stopped adding new set bonuses to gear - and made Materia melded gear negligible entry gear/expensive for A Realm Reborn. So why not bring some of these concepts back with more polish and vision? I don't think it's as difficult as you seem to think it is...

[Asael]

If a new set bonus comes out that is better than the other it will still just replace all the gear as it does now. If a new 1 comes out and it sucks now you have nothing to look forward to or chase after. Maybe you end up with some choices but would it be any more than what we have now?

This is basically what I was getting at with the, "Certain gear pieces at some point (that due to their aspects) would be considered "must haves" and would ultimately end up seeing a lot of use." As in some pieces will be considered better while others would end up being sub-par. Though that is something that will happen anyways even with the vertical gear progression model we use now. That's ultimately inevitable no matter which way we go about it.

The idea here on this point is to find ways that make gear unique and it becomes something each player will pick and choose to what suits them best. Essentially tailoring gear to one's own preferences. You need a piece of gear that has a beneficial enhancement that will make it a first pick choice even over other items of a higher item level.

If all you want is gear to stay relevant longer well there is still Glamour which is a huge hit and drives tons of people to go after armor sets that otherwise are dead on arrive.

True glamors have given gear more relevance, but only in aesthetic style preferences. It's a good thing no doubt, but given the heavy restrictions they place around a lot of the gear it kinda undermines that point. Though I would like to see more options than simply leaving it at stylistic elements alone.

Catching up isn’t all that hard to be honest. I stopped playing for months. I came back and in a week I had the item level high enough to do relevant content with no problems. Sure as a fresh player you may have to spend more time in some older content to get some gear going before you start working on more relevant gear but do you really want a fresh 50 jumping into final coil where they will just outright fail? It is an extreme example but the point is having new people go through easier content allows them to get a little more accustom to what level 50 is before they start going nuts.

Yes catching up after a few month hiatus isn't too overwhelming of a task (although some would beg to differ I'm sure), but I'm talking about over the game's life time. Say 5 or 6 years from now (assuming the game lasts that long) catching up to content that is at item level 500+ becomes an absurdity. Players coming in at that point become almost solely dependent on the veteran players to haul them to current content. Either by spending days and days carrying them through content or shelling out millions in gil to craft up to-date gear for them (which also causes a problem in the learning curve as you just mentioned ie. jumping straight into current raid content). Also given the way a good chunk of the community behaves towards new/behind players I'm will to bet many will not be willing to do that causing greater disparity. With that the problem that arises then is the game begins to die on a very slow bleed out as the game can't hold on to new players. But why do all of this when it can simply be prevented in the first place.

As far as your second point goes, that's what 2.0-2.5 content is for. It makes for a great game foundation for new players to learn how to work their class/job, and the basics to handling game mechanics. I think the main story line quests and endgame content that is here now will provide ample opportunity for players to learn the general and intermediate skills they will need for the rest of the game.

Bottom line is (at least for me) continuously increasing the item levels to absurd numbers is simply a superficial, bland, and boring way to implement progression. I just don't see myself doing what we are doing now for the next 5+ years rinse and repeat. I also think it brings about problems when we keep going deeper and deeper into the game's future (as which has already been mentioned earlier).