Once again screwed in a dungeon!

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I love how the logic here seems totally flipped.

"Leveling players in MY leveling dungeon slowing MY run down?! How dare they!"

And Duuude, I think you found almost every possible extreme case to mention, the large majority of which doesn't happen, and with experience in the party, shouldn't happen. So while an interesting counter argument, I'm afraid it doesn't hold much weight.

Lastly, to the experienced players, you were in their shoes once. You WILL be again when Heavensward drops. Remember that.

[Ogulbuk]

'Leaving behind' is a misnomer. These people offer levelers significantly higher 'kills per hour' due to reduced queues and larger successful pulls in spite of skipping time-wasting groups.

As a new player, I didn't give a damn about KPH. Heck, I don't care about the mob xp either, this game gives amazing xp for doing fates and leave quests, you don't need the dungeons to level up (in fact, I keep unlocking dungeons when they already are outleveled.)

But whenever I do a dungeon, I do it for the human experience. I want to see every corner of that map, pop every treasure chest (the loot from doing so helped me greatly when I went back to level my Gladiator and already got some cool loot for my conjurer run.) One of the coolest thing for a new player, is to kill a group of foes and find a shiny treasure chest potentially holding some shiny new loot. I seen a lot of these are hidden behind optional spawns that are ignored in speed runs.

Oh and of course, if they are kicked of the dungeon for wanting a full run, then they are back to the que and at an even worse position.

People less familiar with the content do smaller pulls and more pulls, full of amateur errors, wipes and vastly extended dungeon clear times, not to mention much longer queue times, resulting in fewer kills per hour.

And they learn from those experiences. Being rushed through a dungeon teaches them nothing. If they ever go back to that dungeon, they are likely to do even worse than they had done the first time, because that speed run taught them how "easy" it was just to rush blind through he dungeon.

You can try to rationalize it to make you feel better, but fact is, speed runs result in bad players attaining high levels and, eventually, ruining your coil runs (and all that other stuff.)

[Malevicton]

players: "Not enough people running these dungeons! Fix plz!"
SE: "Okay, now they have to run the dungeons whether they want to or not."
players: "People aren't running dungeons the way I'd prefer! Fix plz!"

I agree it's not perfect, but work with what you have, not what you feel you should be entitled too.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This speed obsession and self-rghteous, "I'm doing you a favor just by being here" kind of viewpoint is really toxic for the community. Sure, maybe ultimately no one cares as long as they get what they want, but everything is connected.

Leveling players forced/carried through content never really learning it, or ONLY learning how to rush through it, becoming 50s and sticking to the "basics" they learned, or worse, following the examples laid out for them before and only creating more gimped 50s. Ultimately, the talent pool shrinks, players begin to avoid content new or old due to not wanting to have to force/carry others, and that toxicity of the community just slowly grows. And for those at the top, we're all aware of how lonely it gets up there. . .

Is that what you want? That efficiency/speed you love right now might be the very reason your queues are longer and your runs are slower due to lack of competence or skill later.

Hopefully the idea of this statement gets across, but "it's easier to treat a cut now than cure an infection later."

[Ogulbuk]

players: "Not enough people running these dungeons! Fix plz!"
SE: "Okay, now they have to run the dungeons whether they want to or not."

I keep seeing this not only in this thread but others. I am unfortunately not able to start new topics, but I think the issue is not that "not enough people are running these dungeons" but instead simply that there is too high a dps-to-tank+healer ratio. Almost all high level players I see join in are either tanks or healers. I think once I saw a dragoon. My guess is high level players are smart enough to just que in as the job that will get them a fast group, and use their rewards for whatever they need (unless they are trying to upgrade their relics something I still don't understand how that works.) This system has artificially lowered the ratio because high level players in a rush mainly que as those jobs, but that also leads to players that just want to rush through the content being in a position of power in the party.

This is where I go all crazy and propose some over-complicated change to the game:

What if the Dungeon Finder was able to dynamically resize groups? If too many DPS have been waiting in the que (lets say 5 minutes is “too long”) then the Dungeon Finder changes it’s behavior and starts attempting to put together a larger group, as large as required to accommodate as many as possible. In addition to this, the Dungeon will dynamically be buffed, every single critter in the dungeon will have an HP buff that accounts for the increase in player count. Example (I assume here that a tank does 75% the damage of a DPS, this is a number I pulled out of thin air, I don’t know the balance correlation of these class archetypes in this game yet)

4 man (1 TNK,1 HLR,2 DPS) = +0% HP
5 man (1 TNK,1 HLR,3 DPS) = +35% HP
6 man (1 TNK,1 HLR,4 DPS) = +75% HP
7 man (1 TNK,1 HLR,5 DPS) = +110% HP
8 man (1 TNK,1 HLR,6 DPS) = +145% HP

Tactic wise, for the most part, this would not change the design of any dungeon, as you still are rellying on a single tank to do his job against the same number of enemies, and a single healer keeping him standing. There may be a bit of an issue if extremely complex mechanics are used in a particular dungeon (guesswork: some boss somehow permanently holds a single DPS with the goal of halving DPS for a phase of a fight) But leveling dungeons is not where the real challenge is, the real challenge is reserved for the level 50 raids and those are already designed for 8 men (although 2 healers and 2 tanks.)

The result of this is that a single tank/healer combo could potentially “service” a much larger volume of DPS players.

Mind you, I have worked on game dev and realize that what I describe here may be one hell of a nightmare to implement, much less convince head designers it is a good idea (and even worse to convince many players that it is not a stupid idea) so just take this as rambling of a lunatic noob that does not what he is talking about :3

[Saevel]

Trying to justify your opinion of speed running.
Efficiency in amount of exp gained isn't the same as completing a dungeon as it was intended.

Believe it or not, there are a lot of players who want to experience the whole dungeon, not just the bosses.

I did not state my opinion on speed running. As a matter of fact, I am perfectly content to kill every single thing in a dungeon, as much so as skipping some monsters.

I do however suggest that when 3 party members want to quickly run a dungeon, and one doesn't, it is in the best interests of the one dissenting player to go along with it. Particularly when the alternative is not finishing the dungeon at all, let alone "as it was intended." My comment was to show that 4 people having disparate goals can in fact work together to the benefit of all parties involved.

[aisustrong]

Trying to justify your opinion of speed running.
Efficiency in amount of exp gained isn't the same as completing a dungeon as it was intended.

Believe it or not, there are a lot of players who want to experience the whole dungeon, not just the bosses.

dd sure feels like it was meant to be sr'd though
the side corridors on first floor arent even worth the effort beyond the map achievement
the loot in those chests are torn garbage with ilevel lower than equip level

[VanilleFang]

I have never seen this happen. Any time someone asks if we can do a full run, I don't care, and neither does anyone else. I would never go into a Low Level Dungeon and expect a speedrun.

[Soleless]

Even skipping mobs in AV/DD can result in a run that's 30+ minutes. Leveling players will only have to run those dungeons 5-6 times, meanwhile someone doing zodiac and having terrible luck could have to run those dungeons 10, 20, maybe even 30 times. If they want to go through it a bit faster by avoiding extra trash, let em. The only thing I would hate seeing people miss out on in terms of exp are those mini-malboros in AV. Those are fantastic exp vs time spent killing them.

Of course, if people are genuinely concerned about getting the most out of their exp/time, then they'd be doing first room DD/AV pulls and wouldn't even have to compete with Zodiac players and their item drops.

[Noahlimits]

You have to look at it from the other point of view as well. If all those people trying to do the dungeons for relic weren't around, your 30 minute wait to be in the dungeon would stretch out to be 1.5 hours +. I rather do a speed run of a dungeon and get the completion bonus than wait 1.5+ hours for a exp run. Does everyone not remember the que times before they gave incentive to return to old dungeons? DPS on Aether waited upwards of two hours for certain dungeons.