[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[JasonMarkle]

How about this idea...

You equip your designated weapon class. Then, your "Job" show's up in "()" beside that and is determined by your abilities equipped. So since pali was used as an example in the OP I'll just use that.

You Equip the Gobi Gladius and Vintage Kite Shield so when you look you are a Gladiator (Warrior), because currently with no extra abilities equipped you just have your default attack and guard.

Now lets throw in a few abilities to the bar. Lets throw in Cure, Protect, Shell, and War Drum.

Now you see Gladiator (Paladin)

Also something else has changed. You receive a bonus for Defense, Magic Defense, and Piety. (This is assuming that physical level is eliminated and classes have their own individual stats that grow with the rank of said class)

Now lets add in a few more abilitie, Fire, Water, and Punishing Barbs.

Now we read, Gladiator (Red Mage) and our physical Defense drops, but we now have higher Int, and higher Mnd and probably some slight adjustment to Pie either going up or down but obviously it won't be the same as PLD.

Now here's another question, how do we decide these stats, where are they coming from? If you're a R50 GLD are the stats of those builds equal to R50 or does each title Rank up individually. Also, are these classes limited to using only particular weapons? I would say yes to that one but it's something that the rest of the community should debate.

This is just a random idea that needs polished obviously, but I think conceptually it's pretty decent.

[Speeral]

The only thing I am not with is developing "trees" for abilities and what not. Seen it too many times and if I see in an FF game then I dunno if I can keep playing. Personally I like the armoury system as is, because I can quickly add and remove abilities on my ocnj as needed from solo needs to party, to nm.

This freedom and ability to be creative and think about what to add to my bar in any given situation I love. If SE can make stats more effective and meaning, while adding new abilities and making current ones look better. Then the battle system wouldn't be as talked about. I am with many feeling lost sometimes in larger fights as to what is going on, usually I spend more time looking at the HP bars then the fight itself. However, that could have to with the fastr pacing of battle as compared to older MMO's like XI or any typical console rpg that's turned based.

The ideas as presented I do like and would love SE to allow players to retain flexibility within the battle system for quick on the fly changes. Great posts by most ppl in this thread keep it up.

SE on a side note please I beg you no talent trees, be creative please please please

[Rhomagus]

The following statement by Rustyhagun is false:

They are scrapping the system we are playing with now, you don't believe me? Then we will see.

Dargoth_Draconia wrote in another, (but related) thread:

Two Q/A both from different fansite interviews.
Q. You have also mentioned the possible introduction of traditional names. How do you see these new names fitting into the existing class system? Do you plan on using the new names as a guide to develop class uniqueness?

A. Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing classes.

Whatever change is put into effect needs to be right. He recognizes that he will not be able to change the system again after this, so whatever is put into place needs to work, and be able to be balanced, for years to come. Because of this his team is giving this issue a lot of thought prior to implementation.

Q:If you take out the physical level system, do you plan on adding ability trees, sphere grid, licence grid, etc type systems (Final Fantasy spin on classic MMO character building) that will still allow us to build out our classes as we please? If so, what are your thoughts, if not, what are your thoughts on the whole physical leveling system in FFXIV?

A:We're not looking to copy what other MMOs are doing. But we are looking to move in that direction, and right now the battle team has two options that they're thinking of. And basically, they're battling against which one they're going to choose. We're going to be moving in a similar direction, but it's not something that copies another game.

And with that, we want to get back to the roots of the original Final Fantasyesque jobs like Dragoons and White Mages. So we're trying to figure out how to get that to that new type of system.

It seems that the development team is leaning towards a system that incorporates concepts from other games as well as Cairdeas' proposals. This is reassuring in my point of view, as it is a very healthy implementation of "don't fix it if it ain't broken." Many players from many viewpoints tend to cite this philosophy in their criticisms of the game.

[Rosie]

I agree with Speeral. I really don't want to see ability trees. I hate to say it but if I wanted to put points in trees, I'd play WoW. With any ability tree everyone will just pick the most powerful choices.

I think the only flaw with the current class system is that the abilities are linked to weapons.

I think if the classes wern't linked to weapons it would allow them to be more diverse. I dont think we should lose the ability to change class any time we like, but I do think it should be done in a different way.

I would love to see something like menu where you can change your active class, any time you want.

Then you could give the classes more diversity in the weapons they use. Ideally I would like to see each class get a choice between a few different weapons. Like Gladiator for example could use a sword, axe, polearm and each of these weapons could grant access to gladiator only abilities.

You could go one step further and add high end class restricted weapons too.

I'm not saying every class should be able to use every weapon, but having a choice between 2 or 3 options would be really nice.

[Peregrine]

If real jobs are going to be made from or stem off these current classes, what am I gonna do with a R50 conjurer? Will I have to start over on White Mage? I pretty much already levelled it once. Same way with BLM. If "real" jobs are unlocked by playing basic jobs, there has to be some kind of benefit from raising basic jobs high.

What I'd like to see is class overlays. Jobs like blm or whm would be jobs that you overlay onto your basic conjurer that unlocks specific stat alignments, buffs, and abilities. Thaumas and Conjurers can both overlay any mage, but they have minor differences in unlocking some abilities and have a few unique abilities. Whm and blm would not be jobs you would grind. They would be overlays that you earned for the classes that you already levelled.

Thus, if you have a R50 thm and R50 conj, you don't have to level BlM and WHM to 50. You would just have to earn the BLM and WHM overlays through questing and things.

They could make it different quests for different levels. Do you have your R20 whm overlay completed? R30? R40? R50?

Conjurer

[gifthorse]

I do not understand...the whole reason why the system is in place is because people have been complaining about the Holy Trinity (Tank, Healer, DD) now everyone is pushing to go back to Holy Trinity.

But I digress, let us get into the meat of the OP, I understand what they attempted with the system, but it was badly implemented. It could of worked but they made everyone as one of the other posters said Grey. Some of the poster will tell you that all they did in all the MMO's was heal and that this is what they want to do. In the current state once every job/role whatever you want to call it is 50 we will all be playing the same thing, some one is going to come up with the cookie cutter of what you need from every role and everyone is going to play by themselves. While I think Solo needs to be an option this is not an RPG it is an MMORPG. Some people need to be told what to do cause they can't think outside the box, and this is OK there is nothing wrong with this kind of thinking but for those that do it gets frustrating. It is hard to please everyone, they tried to please everyone by giving them options and in the end they pleased nobody because of all of the options.

Um, LoL.

You say "it could of worked". The armory system still exists, so please refrain from using past tense. You don't have to dismiss the entire system because of a few minor faults which can be accommodated for. See my earlier post, please.

And on the issue you raised about everyone being the same. I can assure that even with the current rendition of the system that once all our jobs are R50, we still won't be playing the same thing. First of all, there is like 1 person on all the servers who is even close to having all at R50, and second of all, some abilities are endemic to specific classes.

Third of all, any detrimental issues can be altered.

Fourth of all, you mentioned that they created the armory system to make solo an option? That's not the case. They made the armory system so we could make our own roles, for both solo AND party play.

Fifth of all, some people are happier with an armory system than with a standard job system, so please don't speak for everyone. If you want to add something constructive instead of just shooting down the system for non-existent flaws, then you should try and do so. But until then, don't participate.

[gifthorse]

How about this idea...

You equip your designated weapon class. Then, your "Job" show's up in "()" beside that and is determined by your abilities equipped. So since pali was used as an example in the OP I'll just use that.

You Equip the Gobi Gladius and Vintage Kite Shield so when you look you are a Gladiator (Warrior), because currently with no extra abilities equipped you just have your default attack and guard.

Now lets throw in a few abilities to the bar. Lets throw in Cure, Protect, Shell, and War Drum.

Now you see Gladiator (Paladin)

Also something else has changed. You receive a bonus for Defense, Magic Defense, and Piety. (This is assuming that physical level is eliminated and classes have their own individual stats that grow with the rank of said class)

Now lets add in a few more abilitie, Fire, Water, and Punishing Barbs.

Now we read, Gladiator (Red Mage) and our physical Defense drops, but we now have higher Int, and higher Mnd and probably some slight adjustment to Pie either going up or down but obviously it won't be the same as PLD.

Now here's another question, how do we decide these stats, where are they coming from? If you're a R50 GLD are the stats of those builds equal to R50 or does each title Rank up individually. Also, are these classes limited to using only particular weapons? I would say yes to that one but it's something that the rest of the community should debate.

This is just a random idea that needs polished obviously, but I think conceptually it's pretty decent.

I think that system you suggested is too complicated and restrictive. As the OP suggested, we should be able to assign the role manually. The game shouldnt do it for us. If we want to be a PLD , we should just attach the name to our character, and in so doing, our defence & healing magic is increased while our offensive dmg and mag is decreased.

[Drez]

I personally think a happy medium can be found. The idea of pre-constructed class templates seems like a good idea to me. It's been mentioned a little bit on this thread already I know.

They could add them in as quests you could perform after you reach a certain rank (20 or 25 maybe). If you want to unlock a Paladin template you go out and do the quest and on completion you now have access to a load out that gives you a pre-made ability set suitable for a Paladin as well as exclusive passive bonuses to promote the play style. You could even elaborate on a system like this and add in over Paladin template variants to unlock in game later on as the level cap gets raised and new abilities get added in.

There are of course a lot of "what if's" with this idea. Should you be able to tweak and alter the load outs to your liking while still keeping the passive bonuses? Would these load outs be accessible across all classes? Would you need to have the abilities on the template already unlocked from other classes first? Or would they be abilities exclusive to the template that no class would normally have?

It's a lot to work out. But I think a system like this would not only give classes more direction and uniqueness. But also encourage people to start trying to mix, match, and test abilities in new ways they may never of considered before.

[Tabby]

It is hard to please everyone, they tried to please everyone by giving them options and in the end they pleased nobody because of all of the options.

I disagree. I believe the displeasure stems from the fact that the gladiator's circle slash is too much like the pugilist's concussive blow, which in turn is too much like the marauder's trunk splitter. This is my definition of grey. The problem stems not from having too many options as you assert, but instead from a lack of unique and class defining abilities.

Think of the roles you want to play in a group, and your class abilities like tools in a toolbox. If there is too much overlap in the function of your tools you will quickly become unhappy at the lack of versatility of your toolbox.

[Aldarin]

I feel that a large portion of the game is that sandbox feeling. The ability to play characters that mix and match abilities for the player's preference. I also feel that a large portion of the complains come from a lack of ability to indicate your party role. When looking at a player it is great to see what equipment they are using, but what role they play is not dependent on their equipment, which hinders play due to unknown roles.

This could easily be fixed by simply allowing players to indicate what party role they are currently playing. This could be done through the ability to call a character by a traditional job title, or simply by allowing players to indicate their archetype ( Tank, Healer, DD, Debuff, Support, Nuker, etc.). let players indicate primary specialization and a secondary specialization. This way people can indicate they are playing a Paladin (Primary Tank, Secondary Healer), a BLM (Primary Nuker, Secondary Nuker), or so on. This would clear up a large number of complaints in the game due to lack of specified role.

The point of the current system is to allow players more freedom to choose who their character is. We can thus see monk like characters that are wielding a Great Sword, a paladin with a Great Axe, a Dark Knight wielding a Lance and casting lightning bolts, etc....