[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[Malakhim]

...Because it was designed this way every class or whatever you want to call it has no individuality.

You're confusing individuality, which is exactly what the armory system allows, with pre-defined roles, which it definitely does not do. There's a huge difference.

If you want individuality, then you want the armory system. If you want to be pigeon-holed into a specific gameplay setup, then you want the traditional definition of an MMO class system.

If you want a mix of your own type of gameplay, but want to transmit to people that such and such role is what you do, then you should be all about option 2, which calls for class augments and specializations.

[Anathiel]

Now I've posted this reply on another thread, but I feel as if I shoud post it on all dev1033 threads, If advanced jobs were introduced as specializations within current jobs, I don't think they would do it in a talent tree system. Knowing SE and how they did things in FF:XI and for that matter, any of their main stream titles, they don't copy other games that are popular at the time. They make their own mold and they go with it.
Specialization within a current job the way that the Yoshi-P words not just in his current interviews, but the interviews he's done since he's taken over "command" of the dev team...is really that of Final Fantasy Tactics venue. Not to mention the majority of the team that worked on FF:XI and is currently working on FF:XIV worked in Final Fantasy Tactics. Obviously they're going to have very strong influences from those games.
Now, don't get me wrong...in my mind, the only way to appease everyone is to make a FF:T-esque way of UNLOCKING advance jobs, once they are unlocked the way to level these jobs up is to use a talent tree system. Having a baseline of abilities for all jobs, and then having the advance jobs have the talent tree's. It makes the advance jobs more powerful than baseline jobs, which was the case in any final fantasy (sorry for all those gladiator, marauder lovers out there, just the way it's always been) and allows you to customize your advance job the way you want it to be.
For instance, I get gladiator to rank 10, marauder to rank 10, and thaumaturge to rank 10 (I apologize for spelling) and now I can unlock Dark Knight (my favored class)...now that I've unlocked Dark Knight, when I level it up I get "talent points" which can be put into any of the tree's which I consider. For this particular conversation we will say Dark Knight has 3 tree's: Enfeebling, Tanking, Damage Dealing. Remember this is just for example...I always thought DRK could've been a tank if played properly lol ^^; Now, I unlock dark knight, in order to prevent over powering the advance jobs it would have to start at a higher level as to prevent getting too many talent tree points...actually talent tree points could just start with a higher level. Let's say rank 20, I don't have a diagram of how the tree's would play out, I'm just asking you to pretend along with me. Now, I want to cross spec so I'm playing a final fantasy XI style dark knight, half enfeebling and half damage dealing...you see where I'm going now? I hope so. But look, I hate the cookie cutter of paladins have to be tanks, or gladiators...so now I can respec my talent tree points to be a tank/enfeebler, changing my play style but still giving the game that overall sense of diversity that everyone is craving right now.

Now that I'm thinking of it, it shouldn't be a problem that any job could get the talent points and be able to "spec" in any way of playing. Um...Gladiator could have a talent tree spec open up at rank 20, the three specs being Spike Damage (two handed swords), Tanking (Sword and Shield), or DPS (Sword and shield with offense passive/active abilities).
Now most of the base classes we have now would have to be nerfed, and the talent tree's would be able to buff them back up again but at the cost of "I have a gladiator that can use black magic, white magic, pugilist, and archer abilities" which in my opinion should go anyways. Of course I think that the armory system should be gotten rid of, I don't like, never really did. If it's too much to get rid of, that's fine...I'm sure they could think of something, it's not my job to and I'm going to trust them (the dev team) on that one.

If I happen to find a diagram, or illustration that could better make my opinion known, then I will paste it in a new reply. If I just edit my current post it'll be lost in 5 minutes ^^;;;

[Rhomagus]

The staves and other items have magical properties which allow mages to channel their energy. The swords are just swords. So if you equip "just a sword" then it stands to reason that your THM skills would be hampered. I outlined above how they could add specialisations within the classes to accommodate the things you want.

Ignore it if you want, but Yoshi P already said there are two options they are going for: Advanced classes, which essentially would keep all the current classes. The other route is to make classic jobs specialisations, which would kind of replace the current classes while maintaining the armory system.

Perhaps they will add magical swords which can heighten your magical potency. Or perhaps a specialisation within the classes can help facilitate a sword-wielding mage to make it viable.

The thing i dislike about your proposal is that you are asking for THM to be a specialisation in and unto itself, which is worse, in my opinion than wanted specialisations within the THM class. I don't like the current classes because they lack direction, hence why I am encouraging specialisation within the classes.

You are suggesting they make THM a role/job instead of a class.

^This

Tweaking the current system is all that's necessary to fulfill the adaptability that the Armory gives everyone and the niche roles that people want to emulate.

Not everyone becomes the same "uber class" by setting the same abilities. If someone is setting the same abilities as everyone else in their party, they are gimping their party.

No reason for a Pugilist to set Profundity. No reason for a Thaumaturge to set Ferocity. No reason for an Archer to set Phalanx. There are reasons for other classes to set those abilities. If I'm a Gladiator I often find myself getting rid of Cure II and Sacrifice II. Only if I have a healer when in parties because I can just as easily set Second Wind or Bloodbath alone instead for those sticky situations, (when soloing I'd have all four). I use those extra slot costs to set abilities that would fit my role in the party, and I can change my role if the party make up changes, which is by far the best thing about the Armory.

If I'm set as a Damage Dealing Gladiator, and there is already a Defensive Gladiator, I'm going to focus myself on purely offensive abilities. In this case I'd probably only throw on Bloodbath or Second Wind but not both. Same with the hate grabbing abilities. I'll probably just set Provoke since I don't need to be grabbing multiple mobs but I'd still like to keep the stray one off the ranged classes. Still Precision would be a must in this case. Cadence is definitely going to be there if I'm in a competent party that does Battle Regimens. Ambidexterity in this case is kind of meh so I'd probably just leave it out or keep it just for the hell of it.

I'd fit all the weaponskills of different kinds that I could. Might have one or two straight damage ones, but I'd like to be able to use other skills more tactically. I'd have one to incapacitate the target we're fighting. The incapacitation ones are key as that's different for every monster. I'd also have a skill that would possibly enfeeble the target. Shield Bash if I have a shield and we're fighting casters. Trunksplitter if we're fighting Seedkin. Concussive Blow to help the other Gladiator etc. etc. Feint's a must for almost anything at anytime.

When it comes to Buffing abilities I'd probably put Ferocity, Raging Strike, and Hawk's Eye but that'd probably be it as by then at level 30 I think I'm full.

Now that setup would make no sense for the other Gladiator. They wouldn't be able to AoE provoke. They wouldn't be able to pull an add if provoke was still down. They'd be missing out on Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver. Foresight and Featherfoot aren't only awesome hate grabbing tools that also mitigate damage but setup very cheap weaponskills like Fracture and Haymaker respectively. Ambidexterity is a must right before the opening Provoke as that takes a big chunk of stamina. That Gladiator, despite the fact that we are the same class, should have a completely different setup than me. If they don't, they are gimping the party.

Now what if the Defensive Gladiator leaves? I now can fulfill their previous role by swapping my currently set abilities for new ones. As Gladiators we're completely different. If we're spec'd the same in the same party one of us is gimping the party. We have our own unique role that we are filling and thanks to the armory system in it's current state, we can adapt to a dynamically changing environment.

Party wants to fight a different mob? Set a new incapacitation weaponskill.

Someone wants to leave? Switch classes right then if you have it available or just swap abilities according to the party makeup.

Party completely disbands? Throw Cure and Sacrifice back on. Get rid of hate grabbing abilities altogether, and spec more balanced for a fun night by your lonesome.

When it comes to setting "the best abilities" it's completely different according to the situation. Hardcore players will be able to fit any number of different situations because they've leveled multiple classes accordingly. Casuals will still be able to fit roles in a party but they are limited in their adaptability if they haven't leveled horizontally.

With the limitations on some classes some abilities won't ever be open to those classes. Marauder will never be able to use Aegis Boon. Gladiator will never be able to use Tranquility. Pugilist will never get the enmity increase from Defender.

Tweaks are all that's necessary to make the sword wielding magic user. Tweaks are only necessary to keep a Thaumaturge from soloing Tarbh Uisge, if that's what is needed. Also take into account that some classes are better at doing things than others and that creativity and patience are what differentiate great solo players from the not so great.

Avesta could solo Shinryu but Red Mage was far from over powered in XI. He just had more patience, attention span, and a smarter battle strategy than anyone else, and that game had locked abilities.

Would the armory make sense for XI? No.
Why? Because XI was a different game. The abilities set up for XI were made in the context of XI. Monster strength, party makeup, party sizes, rewards, almost everything about what makes that game not this game is how it was balanced with community behavior and context taken into account. When developing new content the XIV team will need to take into account all of the different strategies that could be taken when exploring that content. They can scale the effectiveness of cross class abilities, action costs, stat effectiveness, gear quality etc. and still balance the game according to the context of it's player's behaviors and needs.

Do some things need to be fixed? Sure they do. I don't think anyone is recommending that they don't. Is it a flaw that requires the entire removal of the game's backbone? Definitely not. All of the complaints about class uniqueness can easily be addressed with Cairdeas' proposal while still maintaining the very core and appeal of XIV that sets it apart from the competition. I actually would prefer that they implement such a system as I love the Armory but I miss my classic Final Fantasy themes.

Even if someone chose to make a sword wielding magic user, that concept could easily be addressed by letting Disciples of War cast area of effect spells or by the introduction of a new class. If someone wants to make a staff wielding monk that attacks up close instead of from afar, include Cairdeas' idea about templates that alter the basic attack, or again, make a new class. What's the difference between a Staff and a Cane anyways? Those have different associations but are wielded in almost the same exact manner. Either way, it still does not require the entire scrapping of the Armory system.

[Rhomagus]

You're confusing individuality, which is exactly what the armory system allows, with pre-defined roles, which it definitely does not do. There's a huge difference.

If you want individuality, then you want the armory system. If you want to be pigeon-holed into a specific gameplay setup, then you want the traditional definition of an MMO class system.

If you want a mix of your own type of gameplay, but want to transmit to people that such and such role is what you do, then you should be all about option 2, which calls for class augments and specializations.

^This (summing it up much more concisely than I could)

[Cairdeas]

Rhomagus a lot of the tweaks necessary are simply allowing for certain weapons in a Class to have Magic Potency. Right now non mage weapons have 0-low Magic Potency. While mage weapons have 50+ magic potency. If you want to play as a character who uses a low magic potency weapon you need to augment your loadout with equipment items that replace the missing magic potency. There are tiaras and earrings that do this.

But SE needs to add more.

[Lamhirh]

I liked the post. You preety much expressed my feelings. I love present system, and i believe i actually would quit game if it get removed. ( or maybe not, we will see) But on topic...Classes, jobs and roles, are something we impose on ourselves. When you have good friends you pla alot this system is awesome. becouse in reality role is something we decide on. We need tank in party, i take class and equipment and than fill skills that will make me a tank. Healer? weapon +skills i am healer. What i would love tho would be ability to save skill configurations, without painfully making macros. Need to switch role for part, i go to skills, select drop butto/drop down menu/whatever/ for predefined/user defined skill set. Quick and painless.

[Cairdeas]

I liked the post. You preety much expressed my feelings. I love present system, and i believe i actually would quit game if it get removed. ( or maybe not, we will see) But on topic...Classes, jobs and roles, are something we impose on ourselves. When you have good friends you pla alot this system is awesome. becouse in reality role is something we decide on. We need tank in party, i take class and equipment and than fill skills that will make me a tank. Healer? weapon +skills i am healer. What i would love tho would be ability to save skill configurations, without painfully making macros. Need to switch role for part, i go to skills, select drop butto/drop down menu/whatever/ for predefined/user defined skill set. Quick and painless.

That Idea was included into my Idea thread. You equip a Job and on the first time you equip it, its loads you out with the core skills for that Job learned from all classes already. You can then modify the load out as you see fit and from then on that Job loadout is Saved.

[gifthorse]

That Idea was included into my Idea thread. You equip a Job and on the first time you equip it, its loads you out with the core skills for that Job learned from all classes already. You can then modify the load out as you see fit and from then on that Job loadout is Saved.

Kind of like an automatic macro like in Call of Duty.

I hope Yoshi and the development team decide on option B of their proposal. This option suggests keeping the classes as they are now with some tweaks, and then encouraging and fostering specialisations. They just need to support some staple FF jobs with the armory system and I think all will be satisfied.

THe only hiccup in the road comes when dealing with the concept of a sword wielding mage. The two reasons that prevent a mage of this type from being viable is low magic potency, as we've discussed, and also the lack of AoE magics. Previously MP management was a huge issue with a melee mage, but now that's out of the equation, only these two problems remain.

Creating a red-mage for example, is near impossible under the current system. So the developers will need to support players who decide to create this role in other ways; new weapons, extra stats, etc.

[Cairdeas]

Belief is the still not unlocked "Fencer" would be a magic based weapon class that would allow for a closer loadout for Red Mage.

[gifthorse]

Belief is the still not unlocked "Fencer" would be a magic based weapon class that would allow for a closer loadout for Red Mage.

Yeah, I saw that once upon a time. Hopefully it gets implemented one day soon. I really want to emulate a red mage someday.