[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[Marious]

I do not understand...the whole reason why the system is in place is because people have been complaining about the Holy Trinity (Tank, Healer, DD) now everyone is pushing to go back to Holy Trinity.

But I digress, let us get into the meat of the OP, I understand what they attempted with the system, but it was badly implemented. It could of worked but they made everyone as one of the other posters said Grey. Some of the poster will tell you that all they did in all the MMO's was heal and that this is what they want to do. In the current state once every job/role whatever you want to call it is 50 we will all be playing the same thing, some one is going to come up with the cookie cutter of what you need from every role and everyone is going to play by themselves. While I think Solo needs to be an option this is not an RPG it is an MMORPG. Some people need to be told what to do cause they can't think outside the box, and this is OK there is nothing wrong with this kind of thinking but for those that do it gets frustrating. It is hard to please everyone, they tried to please everyone by giving them options and in the end they pleased nobody because of all of the options.

[gifthorse]

I do not understand...the whole reason why the system is in place is because people have been complaining about the Holy Trinity (Tank, Healer, DD) now everyone is pushing to go back to Holy Trinity.

But I digress, let us get into the meat of the OP, I understand what they attempted with the system, but it was badly implemented. It could of worked but they made everyone as one of the other posters said Grey. Some of the poster will tell you that all they did in all the MMO's was heal and that this is what they want to do. In the current state once every job/role whatever you want to call it is 50 we will all be playing the same thing, some one is going to come up with the cookie cutter of what you need from every role and everyone is going to play by themselves. While I think Solo needs to be an option this is not an RPG it is an MMORPG. Some people need to be told what to do cause they can't think outside the box, and this is OK there is nothing wrong with this kind of thinking but for those that do it gets frustrating. It is hard to please everyone, they tried to please everyone by giving them options and in the end they pleased nobody because of all of the options.

Um, LoL.

You say "it could of worked". The armory system still exists, so please refrain from using past tense. You don't have to dismiss the entire system because of a few minor faults which can be accommodated for. See my earlier post, please.

And on the issue you raised about everyone being the same. I can assure that even with the current rendition of the system that once all our jobs are R50, we still won't be playing the same thing. First of all, there is like 1 person on all the servers who is even close to having all at R50, and second of all, some abilities are endemic to specific classes.

Third of all, any detrimental issues can be altered.

Fourth of all, you mentioned that they created the armory system to make solo an option? That's not the case. They made the armory system so we could make our own roles, for both solo AND party play.

Fifth of all, some people are happier with an armory system than with a standard job system, so please don't speak for everyone. If you want to add something constructive instead of just shooting down the system for non-existent flaws, then you should try and do so. But until then, don't participate.

[Tabby]

It is hard to please everyone, they tried to please everyone by giving them options and in the end they pleased nobody because of all of the options.

I disagree. I believe the displeasure stems from the fact that the gladiator's circle slash is too much like the pugilist's concussive blow, which in turn is too much like the marauder's trunk splitter. This is my definition of grey. The problem stems not from having too many options as you assert, but instead from a lack of unique and class defining abilities.

Think of the roles you want to play in a group, and your class abilities like tools in a toolbox. If there is too much overlap in the function of your tools you will quickly become unhappy at the lack of versatility of your toolbox.

[Rhomagus]

I disagree. I believe the displeasure stems from the fact that the gladiator's circle slash is too much like the pugilist's concussive blow, which in turn is too much like the marauder's trunk splitter. This is my definition of grey. The problem stems not from having too many options as you assert, but instead from a lack of unique and class defining abilities.

Think of the roles you want to play in a group, and your class abilities like tools in a toolbox. If there is too much overlap in the function of your tools you will quickly become unhappy at the lack of versatility of your toolbox.

The abilities you listed are very different from each other. It would have been one thing if you said that MRD's Foresight is like PUG's Featherfoot or that GLA's Phalanx is like MRD's Fracture and PUG's Haymaker but you didn't and even then their different and serve to further round out a playstyle if you decide to apply all three to your class at the time.

[Tabby]

The abilities you listed are very different from each other.

Yeah, I gave a some pretty bad examples. Serves me right for trying to rely on my memory.

[Amsai]

Unfortunately, they DON'T equal Jobs. And the building blocks are weak. The system is what we HAVE made of it, not what we will make of it, and the system has failed, unfortunately. Many of the current complaints have been about the inability to differentiate the classes. That criticism is not going to fade from a defense of the current system. The game HAS to change or it will fail.

I don't want this game to fail, but I do realize that the current system of F2P will not support this game or bring in new customers. If you think that you can make a PLD out of your GLD, then all props to you, but it isn't cutting it for the people who quit the game, and it certainly isn't attracting new players.

If you REALLY love this game and want it to succeed, then please don't defend the original systems, as much as you may like them, because they will end this game quickly.

The armory system is a great idea, but it does not allow the building blocks to create your own 'jobs', it needs to change. Add a class/job system on TOP of the already existing system, and you instantly create a few things:
1)The 'Final Fantasy' feel
2)A goal for low-mid level players to aim for
3)Class differential that allows players to feel unique in a group

Cairdeas, I think you are wrong in your statements, well-intentioned, but wrong. You CANNOT make a 'white or red mage by pulling the right skills from here and there'... you just make a 'grey mage'. Grey is mushy and boring. 'Any class can be any job'... that is gray. That is what the majority of MMO gamers have decided. Unfortunately, there is no MMO without a large player base.

I love the FF franchise and would like nothing less than to see FFXIV have a rich and fulfilling future. There needs to be change for that to happen.

THIS.

I have to agree with Shazaam. I honestly couldn't agree more.

FFXIV had a lot of neat ideas. But they were all executed in a way that is less than decent. That's why the game is hurting. Although the ideas may seem cool, they really aren't practical. Although after reading that article, (http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=20024), the class system suddenly made a lot more sense to me. Though I still think it functions as absolute trash, I can appreciate the thought that went into designing it.

FFXIV needs to let go, and admit that all of the "innovative features" are just failures. (Fatigue anyone?) The entire game has failed. Although some of the ideas they have would be neat, they just aren't practical in an MMO.

For example, mixing and matching abilities from classes to make a job.
vs.
Having a class/job that has it's own set of defined abilities / role in a group.

With the first option, anyone can do anything, and there is no reason to be any particular class over the other. We're all given the same amount of points to spend on actions, and the same choices for what abilities we want to equip. Although this sounds like fun, we don't really get the ability to customize. We just get the ability to add more useless crap to our bar, and eventually everyone would play the same all-around build of character. We're basically given every ability / trait in the game and can just mesh it together into one "ultimate" (and boring) character.

With the second option, (having a defined role in a party), gives the game a sense of direction. Classes/jobs would have a set of abilities they can use, and that is what would make them different from players in a different class. We don't have to worry about every single player eventually having the same combination of abilities. Choosing a path and sticking with it is what makes classes unique.

That's not to say that they can't make it so there are customizations within each class. Or that we couldn't have a system that was similar to a sub-job system. But being able to cast a Rank 40+ spell on a Rank 5 class is broken, and invites a sense of futility in playing. What we have now is not "versatile" or "creative" in any way. It's just adding more toys to the box. Eventually we'll have favorites that we play with, and won't even look at the others.

We need to think about what is best for the community, and what is best for getting the game back on track. Having a system where there is no penalty for choosing the best abilities of every class to make some Paragon of Every-Class Excellence actually makes the game pretty boring. The way that RPGs tend to work requires assessing a problem, and to over come it, making do with what we have. Having every class and their abilities available, (assuming you've leveled them, which I imagine given enough time, we will), takes all the challenge out of it. There should be more strategy than that.

Now, SE's idea was pretty interesting. I have to hand them that. And I think that in a single-player game, this system could be interesting. But because of the need for group dynamics in this game, we simply can't have this type of system. It just isn't viable.

I think this problem goes a lot further than just the class system. The fact is that SE has to seriously rework the game because their ideas, while creative and genuinely interesting, aren't viable for a MMO. If we've stuck it out this far, (as I'm sure that anyone who has been a real trooper in the game wants to see this bird get off the ground), we should be accepting that some design ideas might not be as good as others. If SE is actually big enough to admit that the problems are straight from their designs, then we should be big enough to accept their apology, and let them fix it. But if we have so many whiners out there saying "Don't touch my Conjurer. I like having every useful spell in a Final Fantasy game wrapped into one class!" Or "Don't change X feature. It's fine as is," then we aren't going to get anywhere.

If the game was fine as it is, then they wouldn't be completely over-hauling it. I really do agree with Shazaam. We just have to admit it didn't work and put in a strong basis for things that have worked in the past. From there, we can work on it.

THIS.

The OP has some neat ideas, if SE were planning to simply work out the kinks, but they are not. They are scrapping the system we are playing with now, you don't believe me? Then we will see. This is the only way to attract the old players and the new ones, for them to hear "We have put in a totally, different and new battle system, traditional FF classes are back!" People hearing this will come back in droves. The old players that left know how the system plays like now, if Yoshi was just to tinker around with what we have now, it wouldn't change any ones feeling for the game. Plus that was Tanaka's vision. I'm sure Yoshi wants his vision to come to fruition, or they would have been no point to remove Tanaka from "office".

Like I have said in the past, the armory system just make everyone a hybrid type RedMage or DrkKnight, but without the cool factor, and at level cap everyone would have the same hybrid abilities equip, but each will be holding a different weapon. 'yawns' boring.

........... the idea is just plan silly for a Final Fantasy, when you already have classes in the lore that do that..eg DrkKnight takes some influence from blkmage/warrior, Paladin takes some influence from whtmage/warrior, Redmage takes some influence from blkmage/whtmage/warrior..etc <- these are your hybrid jobs, they borrow from a fighting/casting style of another class.

While Your pure classes like...eg WhtMage, Blkmage, Warrior/Gladiator/Soldier, Monk, Samurai, Ninja, Thief, Dragoon, Summoner, Geomancer, Beastmaster/Animalist,..etc that only specialize in one style of fighting/casting technique, they borrow from no one.

Yoshi-p knows this, which is why the battle system(which includes the armor we put on) is getting a total face lift. If this wasn't case, the dev team would have simple added some skills hear and there for the various jobs and said "Ok people, play with these new additions for the class and enjoy"....'yawn' boring, no change has happened.

From the concept art he gave us, I know this game is going back to tradition FF1 & 3 type job situations, which would put this game back on track.

Which is why I am not even playing this game anymore until the big changes hit. Because a lot of us are going to be doing this over(in regards to class picks and re-stating), and might want to start a new class to learn it progression properly, because we won't have the option to swap abilities from other jobs anymore, if anything we will have a huge list of abilities 30+ and lets say, a Dragoon would be able to pick from that pool of abilities and place them in the amount of slots we have available to us(think of GW or DCUO, as reference to what I'm trying to get across). The only thing that will cross over from the current system is assigning stats, but now we will have a separate stat sheet for each job class to assign points for, so no more re-assigning point every 2 hrs because you want to play a different role.

AND THIS.

Also, I never ever want to see pet jobs. They are impossible to ballance and will just end up being useless or situational or way too OP like they always do in every MMO that has them. The only way that pets could be implemented in a ballanced way is if they just gave all classes/jobs/whatever the ability to have a pet......... but to be honest, I wouldn't like that either. So sorry summoner fans, but you shouldn't exist for the greater good.