[Reminder] Classes Are Not Jobs [dev1033]

[AlexiaKidd]

They could easily sort out gear and inventory space by separating the two so you don't waste inventory space with gear. Currently I have 64 spaces of my inventory used for gear and equipment when I change classes on Leve's for marks or need to repair an item.

Also Raagnar I agree personally I would never try to make a CON/MNK as that is totally dumb and I was only trying to make a point of how the current system is not as flexible as people try and make out it is, so you can not make any job you want out of like some people think you can.

All I am asking for is that they remove the ties of the weapon defining the class, as that is what is holding the system back in this case. Keep weapons for weapon skill's only and keep classes separate, you could still chop and change abilities and skills like you do now within the classes but now you would have the added option of a different attack style too, so you could have a THM that is an effective mage who wields a sword and a PUG who wields a staff and so on.

[moatcarp]

in addition to #1 and #2 in the OP I think there are 2 other options that could work (I'll use paladin example):
3 - Paladin is a distinct class with completely unique abilities. PLD offers like 50%-70% affinity with GLA and CON by default (assuming default is 0% or something).

4 - Paladin is a distinct class with overlapping abilities to GLA and CON plus some unique abilities (so PLD would unlock Cure II later than CON would but it retains full affinity for the ability).

Either way I'd make there be a pre-req to unlocking PLD like leveling GLA and CON to 20 and completing a quest or something.

Anyway, good thread with lots of good ideas.

[Aldarin]

All I am asking for is that they remove the ties of the weapon defining the class, as that is what is holding the system back in this case. Keep weapons for weapon skill's only and keep classes separate, you could still chop and change abilities and skills like you do now within the classes but now you would have the added option of a different attack style too, so you could have a THM that is an effective mage who wields a sword and a PUG who wields a staff and so on.

This is the main issue with the current job system. I think I made this suggestion in another thread, but I'll do it again. Why not simply allow people to indicate what role they are playing, and a secondary role (like Primary DD, secondary Healer). Now when looking at a player you know in a general sense their expected party role.....and it's not tied to the job they are playing.

Simple to use, easy to implement.

[napalmninja]

Someone posted this already but I'm going to just post it again.


"Q. You have also mentioned the possible introduction of traditional names. How do you see these new names fitting into the existing class system? Do you plan on using the new names as a guide to develop class uniqueness?

A. Yoshida-san is between two possible plans at this time. The first idea is that the traditional names would be introduced as “higher” or “advanced” classes. The traditional classes would thus be something of a goal for players. The second idea is that the traditional names would be more of a subset or specialization within the existing classes.


Whatever change is put into effect needs to be right. He recognizes that he will not be able to change the system again after this, so whatever is put into place needs to work, and be able to be balanced, for years to come. Because of this his team is giving this issue a lot of thought prior to implementation.

Q:If you take out the physical level system, do you plan on adding ability trees, sphere grid, licence grid, etc type systems (Final Fantasy spin on classic MMO character building) that will still allow us to build out our classes as we please? If so, what are your thoughts, if not, what are your thoughts on the whole physical leveling system in FFXIV?

A:We're not looking to copy what other MMOs are doing. But we are looking to move in that direction, and right now the battle team has two options that they're thinking of. And basically, they're battling against which one they're going to choose. We're going to be moving in a similar direction, but it's not something that copies another game.

And with that, we want to get back to the roots of the original Final Fantasyesque jobs like Dragoons and White Mages. So we're trying to figure out how to get that to that new type of system. "

This is from two different interviews.

So it seems to me that they are looking at either making the classes such as Rdm, Blm, Pld etc.. either a sort of spec within the basic classes or an entirely new advanced class.

It also seems that they are looking at something like a talent tree, but possibly more broad such as a license board or sphere grid.

From what I've gathered they don't have the intention of keeping the armory system the way it is, but maybe I've misread it.

EDIT: Thanks Rhomagus for posting this earlier, its a good piece of information.

[JakeRoon]

pssst Alexia, you can remove the basic attack, ^^ you have to use a macro though.

and hey...I think Conj/mnk sounds awesome!!!!!!!!!!

[AlexiaKidd]

Or they could just stop all this weapon=class bull crap!!!!

Look take THM if I want to equip a sword to it I should be able to, I shouldn't do as much damage with it as a main sword user but I should be able to do it anyway. At the minute if I equip a sword I turn into a GLA, yes I can put all my abilities from THM onto my GLA but then that hampers my effectiveness as a THM. It should be the other way around my THM and mage skills should be fine and my sword skill not as effective as a stave ><

The whole system is broken and no amount of little tweaks is going to fix that it needs a complete overhaul not a plaster putting over the top of it. If you want to see why I will quote myself from another thread:

Sorry I used Utsusami as an example, the point I was trying to make is in FFXI there were restrictions that stopped you from taking the best abilities from each class and creating a super class. If FFXI was like this then everyone would level NIN for shadow's, everyone would level SAM for Hasso, Meditate, Third Eye, Siegan, everyone would level WAR for Berserk, War Cry, Aggressor, everyone would level RDM for Convert, Refresh and Haste and so on, it would be completely out of control.

That is what I fear is happening with the current system, already you have THM's that can solo the NM's which are designed for 15 people, how is that balance?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDk94b3oZbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KazOD98mqr4

I have levelled MRD to 50 and started levelling all the other classes I have everything above R24 but I am mainly focusing on ARC now and even I can see how over powered I am becoming adding abilities like, ferocity, faint,invigorate, maim, still precision, skull sunder and so on, on top of my Archers already OP abilties. I can kill things way above what I should be doing and I have that many attack buff's and weapon skill's that most of the time I can't even use them all because everything is dead so quick.

The system need's to be seriously looked at because it is broken as hell at the minute.

[gifthorse]

Or they could just stop all this weapon=class bull crap!!!!

Look take THM if I want to equip a sword to it I should be able to, I shouldn't do as much damage with it as a main sword user but I should be able to do it anyway. At the minute if I equip a sword I turn into a GLA, yes I can put all my abilities from THM onto my GLA but then that hampers my effectiveness as a THM. It should be the other way around my THM and mage skills should be fine and my sword skill not as effective as a stave ><

The whole system is broken and no amount of little tweaks is going to fix that it needs a complete overhaul not a plaster putting over the top of it. If you want to see why I will quote myself from another thread:

The staves and other items have magical properties which allow mages to channel their energy. The swords are just swords. So if you equip "just a sword" then it stands to reason that your THM skills would be hampered. I outlined above how they could add specialisations within the classes to accommodate the things you want.

Ignore it if you want, but Yoshi P already said there are two options they are going for: Advanced classes, which essentially would keep all the current classes. The other route is to make classic jobs specialisations, which would kind of replace the current classes while maintaining the armory system.

Perhaps they will add magical swords which can heighten your magical potency. Or perhaps a specialisation within the classes can help facilitate a sword-wielding mage to make it viable.

The thing i dislike about your proposal is that you are asking for THM to be a specialisation in and unto itself, which is worse, in my opinion than wanted specialisations within the THM class. I don't like the current classes because they lack direction, hence why I am encouraging specialisation within the classes.

You are suggesting they make THM a role/job instead of a class.

[Cairdeas]

Yeah the thing that causes magic to suck on non mage weapons its the weapons Magic Potency stat.

Most likely Fencer if it becomes a proper class will have fencing swords that have high potency (non-magic weapons normally cap around 5 magic potency while magic weapons have 50+)

[Rhomagus]

The staves and other items have magical properties which allow mages to channel their energy. The swords are just swords. So if you equip "just a sword" then it stands to reason that your THM skills would be hampered. I outlined above how they could add specialisations within the classes to accommodate the things you want.

Ignore it if you want, but Yoshi P already said there are two options they are going for: Advanced classes, which essentially would keep all the current classes. The other route is to make classic jobs specialisations, which would kind of replace the current classes while maintaining the armory system.

Perhaps they will add magical swords which can heighten your magical potency. Or perhaps a specialisation within the classes can help facilitate a sword-wielding mage to make it viable.

The thing i dislike about your proposal is that you are asking for THM to be a specialisation in and unto itself, which is worse, in my opinion than wanted specialisations within the THM class. I don't like the current classes because they lack direction, hence why I am encouraging specialisation within the classes.

You are suggesting they make THM a role/job instead of a class.

^This

Tweaking the current system is all that's necessary to fulfill the adaptability that the Armory gives everyone and the niche roles that people want to emulate.

Not everyone becomes the same "uber class" by setting the same abilities. If someone is setting the same abilities as everyone else in their party, they are gimping their party.

No reason for a Pugilist to set Profundity. No reason for a Thaumaturge to set Ferocity. No reason for an Archer to set Phalanx. There are reasons for other classes to set those abilities. If I'm a Gladiator I often find myself getting rid of Cure II and Sacrifice II. Only if I have a healer when in parties because I can just as easily set Second Wind or Bloodbath alone instead for those sticky situations, (when soloing I'd have all four). I use those extra slot costs to set abilities that would fit my role in the party, and I can change my role if the party make up changes, which is by far the best thing about the Armory.

If I'm set as a Damage Dealing Gladiator, and there is already a Defensive Gladiator, I'm going to focus myself on purely offensive abilities. In this case I'd probably only throw on Bloodbath or Second Wind but not both. Same with the hate grabbing abilities. I'll probably just set Provoke since I don't need to be grabbing multiple mobs but I'd still like to keep the stray one off the ranged classes. Still Precision would be a must in this case. Cadence is definitely going to be there if I'm in a competent party that does Battle Regimens. Ambidexterity in this case is kind of meh so I'd probably just leave it out or keep it just for the hell of it.

I'd fit all the weaponskills of different kinds that I could. Might have one or two straight damage ones, but I'd like to be able to use other skills more tactically. I'd have one to incapacitate the target we're fighting. The incapacitation ones are key as that's different for every monster. I'd also have a skill that would possibly enfeeble the target. Shield Bash if I have a shield and we're fighting casters. Trunksplitter if we're fighting Seedkin. Concussive Blow to help the other Gladiator etc. etc. Feint's a must for almost anything at anytime.

When it comes to Buffing abilities I'd probably put Ferocity, Raging Strike, and Hawk's Eye but that'd probably be it as by then at level 30 I think I'm full.

Now that setup would make no sense for the other Gladiator. They wouldn't be able to AoE provoke. They wouldn't be able to pull an add if provoke was still down. They'd be missing out on Aegis Boon and Outmaneuver. Foresight and Featherfoot aren't only awesome hate grabbing tools that also mitigate damage but setup very cheap weaponskills like Fracture and Haymaker respectively. Ambidexterity is a must right before the opening Provoke as that takes a big chunk of stamina. That Gladiator, despite the fact that we are the same class, should have a completely different setup than me. If they don't, they are gimping the party.

Now what if the Defensive Gladiator leaves? I now can fulfill their previous role by swapping my currently set abilities for new ones. As Gladiators we're completely different. If we're spec'd the same in the same party one of us is gimping the party. We have our own unique role that we are filling and thanks to the armory system in it's current state, we can adapt to a dynamically changing environment.

Party wants to fight a different mob? Set a new incapacitation weaponskill.

Someone wants to leave? Switch classes right then if you have it available or just swap abilities according to the party makeup.

Party completely disbands? Throw Cure and Sacrifice back on. Get rid of hate grabbing abilities altogether, and spec more balanced for a fun night by your lonesome.

When it comes to setting "the best abilities" it's completely different according to the situation. Hardcore players will be able to fit any number of different situations because they've leveled multiple classes accordingly. Casuals will still be able to fit roles in a party but they are limited in their adaptability if they haven't leveled horizontally.

With the limitations on some classes some abilities won't ever be open to those classes. Marauder will never be able to use Aegis Boon. Gladiator will never be able to use Tranquility. Pugilist will never get the enmity increase from Defender.

Tweaks are all that's necessary to make the sword wielding magic user. Tweaks are only necessary to keep a Thaumaturge from soloing Tarbh Uisge, if that's what is needed. Also take into account that some classes are better at doing things than others and that creativity and patience are what differentiate great solo players from the not so great.

Avesta could solo Shinryu but Red Mage was far from over powered in XI. He just had more patience, attention span, and a smarter battle strategy than anyone else, and that game had locked abilities.

Would the armory make sense for XI? No.
Why? Because XI was a different game. The abilities set up for XI were made in the context of XI. Monster strength, party makeup, party sizes, rewards, almost everything about what makes that game not this game is how it was balanced with community behavior and context taken into account. When developing new content the XIV team will need to take into account all of the different strategies that could be taken when exploring that content. They can scale the effectiveness of cross class abilities, action costs, stat effectiveness, gear quality etc. and still balance the game according to the context of it's player's behaviors and needs.

Do some things need to be fixed? Sure they do. I don't think anyone is recommending that they don't. Is it a flaw that requires the entire removal of the game's backbone? Definitely not. All of the complaints about class uniqueness can easily be addressed with Cairdeas' proposal while still maintaining the very core and appeal of XIV that sets it apart from the competition. I actually would prefer that they implement such a system as I love the Armory but I miss my classic Final Fantasy themes.

Even if someone chose to make a sword wielding magic user, that concept could easily be addressed by letting Disciples of War cast area of effect spells or by the introduction of a new class. If someone wants to make a staff wielding monk that attacks up close instead of from afar, include Cairdeas' idea about templates that alter the basic attack, or again, make a new class. What's the difference between a Staff and a Cane anyways? Those have different associations but are wielded in almost the same exact manner. Either way, it still does not require the entire scrapping of the Armory system.

[Cairdeas]

You still thinking of it like "Gladiator" is anything other then "Sword User" its not. In Japanese it literally means "Sword User"

You can take your Thaumaturge, load it out with all the skills you want, then equip a sword, Yes you turn into a Gladiator (Sword User) but you can still use all the skills from thaum (minues a few weapon specifics)