Tank Weights

[Dervy]

Yo.

I don't know if many of you pay attention/read Reddit (I do not blame you if you don't lol), you may of seen me post some updated Weights for the DPS jobs Yady-ya. What did come of a surprise for me was that there was a demand to calculate DET/CRT/SS for Tanks, as you guys are now edging towards a more "DPS Rambo" playstyle.


I'd like to get a discussion going with your knowledge about both the WAR and the PLD so I can get this stuff done for you guys.

I do not believe that weights should be measured similarly to how we do things in the DPS forums, where more weight = more DPS, but rather, should be taken more subjectively for Tanks and used for more "educational" purposes.

We also have to take into consideration that there are difference stances for both Tanking Jobs which will affect the weights somewhat.

I want to get one job done at a time with your continuous feedback and working back and forth within this thread to calculate these weights for you guys until you're all satisfied. Everything about the jobs are open for discussion. I will never know as much about Tanking roles than you folk and I'd rather discuss this with open ears from many voices and opinions, before I run my mouth all over the place.

DISCUSSION IS CURRENTLY FOR WARRIORS ONLY

The warrior, mechanically, is much harder to calculate due to the "random" usage of Inner Beast and Storms Path, which most WARs only use for special occasions, like mitigating large hits or potential AOEs. I want to get this out of the way first.

Here are the current weights I've calculated based on a hybrid model/sim I've created:

Defiance On:
STR: 1
WD: 8.396
CRT: 0.210
DET: 0.301
SS: 0.185

Defiance Off:
STR: 1
WD: 8.399
CRT: 0.215
DET: 0.301
SS: 0.183

The weight differences in CRT is rather self-explanatory. With Defiance, you're receiving more CRT (2% per Wrath) and as CRT has diminishing marginal returns, the weight of this will be decreased (the impact on DPS is an increase)

The one thing I have not included into this calculation is the 5s delay of Berserk. The SS weight will fall down to the 0.15x range once I add this number in (I just switch a formula around in my model) and this is my main concern. How big of an impact is Berserk once you're stunned for 5s?

Another issue I'm having with the Warrior, which I briefly covered above, is the usage of Inner Beast and Storms Path. They're not really used in a set rotation (afaik) but are used sparingly instead. What would be the best way to model these skills? Should I just ensure they're being used every 30 seconds, put them in randomly, or should I adjust the usage of them to suit Turn 13 tanking mechanics?

[Alphras]

I really like what you are doing there.

I think the best approach would be to use a simple rotation for maximizing dps, ignoring Storm's Path completly and maximizing the use of Inner Beast. Everything else would be to specific for the encounter (imo).

[stoxastic]

I agree with the above poster, I think if we're looking at stat weights for DPS, it's best to leave out storms path altogether and just have a Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye rotation (adding Fracture, possibly only when defiance is off). Also using IB on cooldown and using IB -> Infuriate -> IB when available.

I'm intrigued by the difference in Crit weights with Defiance on/off. I was always under the assumption that the Wrath crit bonus was a flat 2-10% on top of the original crit you have from stats. I guess that's not the case according to your simulation. Does internal release work the same way as the wrath crit bonus as well? Is IR considered as a cooldown used in your sim?

As for Berserk, it's agreed that there's some minimum amount of skill speed that WARs want in order to squeeze 9 hits in with the berserk buff up. So I don't think dps will scale linearly with skill speed in in-game conditions (0 SS will give only 8 hits in berserk and and will not be great until you have X SS to get 9 hits in berserk. After that, returns get worse once again due to the pacification effect).

Also, do you stack Unchained with Berserk or use both when available on cooldown? Typically it's better to stack Unchained with Berserk to more overall dps. I'm not sure if it matters for the stat weights.

What's the weighting of DPS stats between Crit and Det on gear? Is it exactly 3:2? If your weights are assumed to be correct, does that mean Crit is better than Det for WAR?

[Dervy]

snip

Yup, Wrath stacks are a flat 2% crit. That's only 10% bonus to crit when you're infuriated. I'm under the assumption that Wrath just adds bonus crit on top of what you already have and isn't affected by Internal Release. So if you were averaging out at 21% crt with IR, then you'd be at 31% crt whilst infuriated, but that's why I'm here as I want to make sure everything is correct.

Also, internal release is just averaged out across the board, rather than hardwiring it to only affect certain abilities and assumed it's used on cooldown. The same is applied for every other job modelled that uses Internal Release. It's much easier to handle data when everything is averaged. Remember, this isn't a simulation like T0rins sim for the SMN, or xivsim (w/e it's called), but rather, a linear model of the Warrior.

Stacking Unchained with Berserk is something that I haven't done (even though my WAR told me to do so lol), but all I'd have to do is change one value and that'll be sorted. Again, I wanted to get feedback from everyone at large rather than one persons opinion.

And just off the work I've done by myself, this would be considered the weighted "DPS BiS" http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/P3KD, regardless of Defiance being on or off, but this will most probably change after we've sorted the WAR out. Of course, that doesn't consider the 9 GDC berserk stack either (390 SS isn't it?)

[stoxastic]

Thanks! This is good stuff.

So based on the weights you have, does that mean crit is typically better for warriors than det? For example, lets say I'm melding a Ruby accessory and I can either use savage might IV or savage aim IV. The Savage AIM IV would be better here but a small margin? (9 Crit vs 6 Det)

[Donjo]

Thanks! This is good stuff.

So based on the weights you have, does that mean crit is typically better for warriors than det? For example, lets say I'm melding a Ruby accessory and I can either use savage might IV or savage aim IV. The Savage AIM IV would be better here but a small margin? (9 Crit vs 6 Det)

That would appear to be true... but it's by a small margin. 0.1 effective STR small, per accessory. However, there's a limit to that stacking because the weight of crit will lower in relation to how much you currently have. Thus, it's technically best to pursue both at once.

This is a good lesson for the actual DPS to learn, too: if the weight of DET is less than 45% more than either Crit or Speed, you might get more mileage by stacking that instead of DET because you'll get approximately 45% more points of Crit or SS than you would of DET.

[ZDamned]

How much does 1 point of Crit-rating add to your chance to actually Crit?

[Dervy]

1 CRT = 0.0697%

[ZDamned]

That sounds way higher than what it feels like in game...
If it's true though, then you can achieve 56% Crit chance with 5 Wrath stacks.
I don't feel like that is the true %...

[Dervy]

That 0.0697% per crit only applies for anything above the base 341 value. Your base Crit% is 5.3307%. The Crit formula is %=CRT*0.0697-18.437. You'd need 824 CRT if you wanted a 59% Crit Chance when infuriated and under Internal Release :P