Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[mvenom]

Judge Xero has determined that the damage of a BLM is around 12% higher than SMN.
I am a T13 clearer and BLM / SMN, to claim that those who ask for a buff don't know how to play summoner is ignorant and stupid. I see you have clared it too and you have a good BLM to compare yourself

Oh well, I dont mind if they buff smn potency, I mean its just more dps for me Just tired of people whining about it being the worst dps while they cannot play themself.
I'm the only caster in the FC so dont have anything to compare to, and I dont know if its viable to compare to melees, on our first t13 kill I was sitting at 444 ish according to brd in group, while drg was at 430 and bard at 400 ish. IDK what to say, others in my group cant play then?. Not like im out gearing them, im gimping myself with i125 book (because ss+acc lol i130), dropping miasma2 from rotation to save mp and not using ruin2 as often as I'd like so I need ballad at 1st divebomb phase.

[Xisin]

The gcd is still there regardless of the astral/umbral influence it just affects cast time. This effectively gives blms some time to move and to finish a cast as its benefits. That said, it's not quite what spell speed gives. Also the potency of fire 3 and blizz 3 are at 70% since you are casting in opposite influence. The selene bit pretty much solidifies the evidence that spell speed is causing this balance issue. If summoners got the same value that blms did from spell speed (as we get similar returns from det/crit) then it'd be A-OK fine.

Even more concerning is that a summoner passive gives a spell speed boost (lolreally?) the passive happens occasionally on pet crit. Summoners do not need a potency increase leading into 3.0. too many things can change. I'd honestly just rather them change how spell speed affects summoners or just give smns a set of gear to themselves. It actually makes more sense to separate blm and smn than it does to separate drg and monk. The only reason I can see drg is separate is the innate defense value of drg gear.

Also the parses i mentioned were both 3 min duration (thats the blm in me, as it really only matter until Raging strikes resets.)

[ViviAnimus]

Casters are good at T13, Venom. Although I get from 480-500 on my BLM now with ilvl 127 (merged). And yes, Xisin, but right now SS is useless for SMN and that's the way it is. If it was up to me I would give BLM presence of mind and Sumoners another skill that would up their DPS. The notion that caster DPS is for a chunk dependent on other classes is pathetic and should never have happened. And I stand by the argument that Summoner should at least excel BLM in either AoE or ST department. It has been established that BLM simply has both at this moment in time. Fixing gear and MP issue is going to give SMN some more DPS, but not enough to come near BLM and definitely not enough to come near BLM with Selene. That is why SMN needs an increase of some sort outside of gear

[Judge_Xero]

Even more concerning is that a summoner passive gives a spell speed boost (lolreally?) the passive happens occasionally on pet crit. Summoners do not need a potency increase leading into 3.0. too many things can change. I'd honestly just rather them change how spell speed affects summoners or just give smns a set of gear to themselves.

You are 100% correct, since SMN damage is difficult to balance between fights. Even in it's current state it could completely own on certain kinds of fights.

What would you think if the Pet Trait was Increase Cast Speed by 20% instead of the + 20% Spell Speed?

Visualizing it I could see it giving more damage to SMN in higher uptime fights, without giving too much of a benefit in fights where the pet is unable to attack, i.e. low uptime fights where SMN Dots are still able to tick where the boss jumps away etc.

Much higher benefit from Selene - 1.76 GCD with current i130 gear.

Higher Single Target Damage Potential using Ifrit

[mvenom]

I find it pretty stupid they literally made new class and even gave it new set (Brd+Nin) but still SMN+BLM shares the set.
Its like developers have no clue how summoners works.
Look at DW weapons: Mnk Crit+Det, Drg Crit+Det, Brd Crit+Det, Nin Crit+Det, Blm Crit+SS, then summoner Crit + waaaaaaaaiiit for it --- SS.
Gear isnt that bad with relic, I've managed to find decent set, 546 Acc (vit earrings, t12 isnt nice to me), 508 crit, 355 Dete. Only pieces with SS is ring + necklace.

Spellspeed buff from pet is kinda pointless, should be like dete or even crit. But then again, seems like no-one in SE dev team plays it to know whats good for it. See ifrit egi, Flaming Crush range been bugged since launch, no interest at all in fixing it but there comes typo in fishing log and sure htey notice stuff like that immediately. Yea yea theres another team probably working on that stuff.

[Xisin]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing the passive itself give a potency boost on that (not 20%!), since the ability does next to nothing as it stands. the trait is broken in the worst way. It'd be a good way to equalize procs.

[Shizuna]

snip

You definitely don't play with or haven't encountered competitive people who can pull at least 450 dps on t13 as melee/BLM. I'll just give you a general number range on what I've seen for each turns and how SMN's compare. Then you'll get an idea of how bad SMN dps is compared to others. This is based on numbers I've heard and seen from other people who are in hardcore or highly progressed FC's/static.

T10:
Melees: 500-560
BLM: 480-530
BRD: 450-520
SMN: 450-500 (lol)

T11:
Melees: 520-580
BLM: 460-520
BRD: 440-490
SMN: 440-460

T12:
Melees: 500-550
BLM: 490-530
BRD: 450-480
SMN: 450-480

T13:
Melees: 450-500
BLM: 440-500
BRD: 420-470
SMN: 430-450

[Hiruke]

From the start SE wanted to make certain jobs more difficult to get maximum performance similar to MNK vs DRG.

To begin with, this is poor design, and has since been corrected after the introduction of NIN (though they should have corrected it sooner). Also, in the case of MNK v DRG, MNK was the more complicated role and also the one with a higher dps ceiling. In this case, SMN is the more complicated role while BLM is the one with the higher dps ceiling. So, how can you stand behind this as an argument, since it's been nullified on both fronts?

You say that BLM is better than SMN in all aspects but maybe the SMN you're judging against was subpar therefore had a weaker output.

Are you seriously arguing faulty premise? A SMN doesn't become "top dps" because the DRG, MNK, and BLM in your PT are awful at their jobs and doing 200-300 less dps than they should. People are saying SMN is lowest dps because of math, not because of player skill/individual performance.

Also SE has confirmed SMN has a MP issues in FCoB, not that they are weaker than other classes.

If SE isn't aware there's a huge imbalance there similar to MNK v DRG, I don't know what to say. SMN has to manage their pet, manage their mp, keep 4-5 different DoTs rolling, use multiple off GCD abilities wedged in-between instant casts (of which you only instant cast Bio, Miasma II, Ruin II, and Swiftcasted Shadowflare), making you have to really plan out what you're doing and execute at a high level. Honestly, the demands made of SMN don't have a good analogue with any other job in the game, and they are rewarded for their role complexity by being the lowest dps in the game? lol gg

[Xisin]

you guys harping on the complexity of summoner is funny. Monk plays pretty smoothly, prob more smooth than any other class, it sorta just flows and is very, very logical, you just have to read tooltips.

Casting ruin 2/sc shadowflare before you fester/pet buff isn't rocket science, nor is maintaining 3-5 dots. (bio, bio 2, miasma, miasma 2, shadow flare.) though I'd imagine that with current mp standards miasma 2 is out of the question. I will give it to you that summoner doesn't flow nearly as well as say monk and its flow of play reminds me more of nin than anything else. Summoner has next to no casting implications if played properly... sorry, mobility is a thing for you guys. and no, saying that X has a higher skill ceiling than Y means that X should do more damage is a bad design philosophy. Have you played League of Legends? if so how do you feel about Shaco being garbage in high play as opposed to say Jax for a bit?

Since we're talking about skill ceilings lets talk about skill floors, lets go with a bad blm on t11 just for giggles. Do you think a lower skill floor warrants a higher skill ceiling? vice versa? whats your philosophy on that?



Stop with the subjective crap, Cause the only way to argue it is, dismissing as subjective, or bringing up subjective crap of your own.

[Judge_Xero]

I honestly wouldn't mind seeing the passive itself give a potency boost on that (not 20%!), since the ability does next to nothing as it stands. the trait is broken in the worst way. It'd be a good way to equalize procs.

I think that 20% would be fair considering your options for spells to cast, Ruin.

@ Base Crit you're looking at 1 Proc for 8 Seconds (So 1 Extra Cast for 80 Potency/min)
@ 80% Crit you could reach 100% up time for 6 Extra Casts (480 Potency/min)

Garuda would just be half of that though. But far better in AOE situations.

Even with Current Gear it would only mean 2 extra Ruins or 10-14 DPS, which is funny though because it's the equivalent to +500 Spell Speed for 24 Seconds of 60.

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Thing that would suck is the negative scaling for Spell Speed doing it that way.

2.5s * 0.8 @ 2s GCD - 0.5 Reduction
2s * 0.8 @ 1.6 GCD - 0.4 Reduction

Unless it was applied as a 20% reduction from the max GCD every time.

2s -> 1.5s GCD 0_0 -> 25% Reduction yes plz

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Then the whole "MY MP!!!!" thing from casting more, but at least 2 X Ruin + Energy Drain > Fester

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Making it 20% Casting speed and increasing Ruin/Ruin II to 100 Potency I think would go a long way.

+ 5 Potency/s from the Potency Increase + extra damage from a better proc system.