Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Romsca]

I know you are really convinced and trying hard but...



There is not a single add that is worth virusing in this game that deal magic damage except the Sin at T13 that don't even matter. You'd still prefer Apoc the warrior for an Ahk Morn over a second super virus.

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This is true but you can,t relly on E4E. It's a proc chance. It is useful during adds phases like T12 and T13. WHm and SCH already have it. What,s the point to have two characters with two minute CD E4E? You don't need it up all the time.



Yet again, it's a spell that both healers have. They have better mana then you and they'll take priority over you. In farm content, people don't die also

• Surecast has uses. It's not a waste. It was potent in T5.
• Blizzard II is 50 Potency per target. It's potent in AoE for SMN. Miasma II, Enkindle, Shadowflare are up and you contagion + bane on 4 targets (Like T12 and T13) 200 Potency > 80 Potency. Blizzard II is shit for BLMs.
• Sleep has no use in raid.
• Manaward is my level 30 ability jerk.
• Resurrection would give too much utility to BLM and I wouldn't even use.

Any good Scholar will refuse someone to slip Viruses on the boss. It will screw him over.

content design flaw, not profession flaw
As opposed to not having it up as much as possible? Guess we should scrap out block, parry, dodge, misses...
No arguement on that single situation.
Niche.
Niche.
This isn't Final Raid: Coils of Bahamut. Lot more content outside.
That's nice.
See first and sixth sentence.
Glad to know resurrection has utility
That's fine, I'll virus the adds instead.

[Aikaal]

content design flaw, not profession flaw
As opposed to not having it up as much as possible? Guess we should scrap out block, parry, dodge, misses...
No arguement on that single situation.
Niche.
Niche.
This isn't Final Raid: Coils of Bahamut. Lot more content outside.
Glad to know resurrection has utility
That's fine, I'll virus the adds instead.

Most warriors and paladins have det and crit because they can take the hits easily in farm content. This includes the hardest fights in this game : T10 to T13.

Outside of FCoB is the old content that is extremely easy to overpower. There is WoD where you have zero to six Scholars. Your Virus won't be needed.

Resurrection would be useful on BLM because they have infinite mana. Summoner don't. It roughly takes 30% of your mana pool and if you spam Energy drain, you lose the DPS you are already lacking.

Virusing the adds voids that super-virus buff making it equal to BLM so you don't get that gain.

All these reasons I typed are the reasons why a thread like this exists. Summoners can't compete.

[Romsca]

Most warriors and paladins have det and crit because they can take the hits easily in farm content. This includes the hardest fights in this game : T10 to T13.

Outside of FCoB is the old content that is extremely easy to overpower. There is WoD where you have zero to six Scholars. Your Virus won't be needed.

Resurrection would be useful on BLM because they have infinite mana. Summoner don't. It roughly takes 30% of your mana pool and if you spam Energy drain, you lose the DPS you are already lacking.

Virusing the adds voids that super-virus buff making it equal to BLM so you don't get that gain.

All these reasons I typed are the reasons why a thread like this exists. Summoners can't compete.

Again and again, DESIGN FLAW NOT PROFFESION FLAW. Yes black mage has infinite mana though umbral ice phase mechanic. Summoner should have been designed with a very large mana pool, possibly over 4k so that the return on both aetherflow and incombat man regen tick would balance out their mana costs and upkeep, and any extreme circumstances, use of energy drain.

Smn is not the same playstyle as blm, we have our strengths and you have yours. I think the current version of smn needs some tweaks, piety to mana and weapon damage mainly, but to say our utility sucks or we can't compete is strictly due to content design that plays against our strengths.

[Aikaal]

Again and again, DESIGN FLAW NOT PROFFESION FLAW. Yes black mage has infinite mana though umbral ice phase mechanic. Summoner should have been designed with a very large mana pool, possibly over 4k so that the return on both aetherflow and incombat man regen tick would balance out their mana costs and upkeep, and any extreme circumstances, use of energy drain.

Smn is not the same playstyle as blm, we have our strengths and you have yours. I think the current version of smn needs some tweaks, piety to mana and weapon damage mainly, but to say our utility sucks or we can't compete is strictly due to content design that plays against our strengths.

I gain Piety when I use my BLM soul Crystal, Summoner Don't. BLM don't have a flaw design. They don't need to be changed so they are equal to SMNs. It's the SMN that needs to be changed meaning you are saying they need a buff.

[Romsca]

I gain Piety when I use my BLM soul Crystal, Summoner Don't. BLM don't have a flaw design. They don't need to be changed so they are equal to SMNs. It's the SMN that needs to be changed meaning you are saying they need a buff.

All classes gain mana for each point of piety. Each class and job gain it at different rates. Blm and smn have zero piety on gear outside of crafted gear and food. What I am saying is that for smn, with a base amount of 214 piety, our conversion rate should be way higher than blm to the point that without crafted gear or food smn should be sitting around 4k mana pool.
Blm does not have need for a large mana pool, having one is a perk. Your class mechanic is to swap though fire for damage and ice for regen, rinse repeat. Summoner doesn't play that way. Every class has a form of resource replenishment. However, not counting bards songs, no class can sustain infinite resource like black mage. Even melee run out over time. So smn should receive a higher mana pool so aetherflow returns more back thus extending our staying power, increasing dps with more festers, and strengthens our class playstyle of being a multi target dotter. This small mana fix also changes spell speed to be favorable for smn.

[Aikaal]

I love SMN, I still play it from time to time and it still has my heart as my "most" favorite class but I can easily accept that they are weak.

That,s exactly what I want to mention. SMN is flawed right now, you're not forced to stop playing it.

with a base amount of 214 piety, our conversion rate should be way higher than blm to the point that without crafted gear or food smn should be sitting around 4k mana pool.

I have infinite mana but you have no idea how the BLM rotation works. This is a territory you shouldn't enter I have a base of 245 Piety because of my BLM Soul. A lot of people give few Piety points as a BLM for their rotation. Some of them go crazy and meld to have 316 Piety to get an extra Fire 1 in their rotation. I want to keep my large mana pool.

The mana pool of BLM has nothing to do with Summoners.

[Romsca]

SMN is flawed right now, you're not forced to stop playing it.


I have infinite mana but you have no idea how the BLM rotation works. This is a territory you shouldn't enter I have a base of 245 Piety because of my BLM Soul. A lot of people give few Piety points as a BLM for their rotation. Some of them go crazy and meld to have 316 Piety to get an extra Fire 1 in their rotation. I want to keep my large mana pool.

The mana pool of BLM has nothing to do with Summoners.

Then explain it to me. Blm goes though fire phase to dish damage, then ice phase to replenish mana to repeat the process. Having a larger mana pool on blm Mage means squeezing out an extra fire spell during astral fire phase. And while it affects your incombat mana regen (pre umbral ice stacks) the amount you regen with umbral ice stacks makes that amount negilable.
I played WoW balance druid before, have a fair understanding of blm base mechanic.

[BakaWakka]

Again and again, DESIGN FLAW NOT PROFFESION FLAW.

I find it interesting that instead of addressing the blatant flaws that summoners have, you're instead pointing fingers at the content and saying that all the content is flawed. Almost as if you think the entire game should be centered around summoners when every other job currently has no issues at all with the current content. Interesting indeed.

At the end of the day, numbers are numbers, and Summoners simply cannot keep up with Black Mages in the current content, and their "utility" is next to irrelevant.

But then again, according to you, Square Enix should change all content in the game so that Summoner is more useful, rather than simply, I don't know, changing the class itself.

Interesting argument indeed.

[Romsca]

I find it interesting that instead of addressing the blatant flaws that summoners have, you're instead pointing fingers at the content and saying that all the content is flawed. Almost as if you think the entire game should be centered around summoners when every other job currently has no issues at all with the current content. Interesting indeed.

At the end of the day, numbers are numbers, and Summoners simply cannot keep up with Black Mages in the current content, and their "utility" is next to irrelevant.

But then again, according to you, Square Enix should change all content in the game so that Summoner is more useful, rather than simply, I don't know, changing the class itself.

Interesting argument indeed.

You really need to go back though all my posts in this thread. I have only used the content design in the last 2 pages in regards to the usefulness of summoner utility spells e4e, supervirus and resurrection. Never have I said the content should favor summoner over any class.

I have and still hold that the biggest fix summoner, in its current iteration, is increasing its mana pool size and tweaking their weapon damage.

[Odowla]

I have and still hold that the biggest fix summoner, in its current iteration, is increasing its mana pool size and tweaking their weapon damage.

I have Dreadwyrm Grimoire on my SMN.

My ilevel is 115. And I gained 20 DPS from all that weapon damage. It's a scaling problem as a whole, not just weapon damage. Every other class gets 50+, and Monks gained around 100 DPS from the HA > Dread upgrade alone.

And here's the Math post of SMN issues, adding 1k mp would only delay it a little bit.

Base DoT Rotation + Durations: 159/30s + 133/24s + 106/18s + 212/30s + 186/60s (miasma 2 + contagion)
So the BASE rotation, without counting Miasma 2, is 610 MP - which is, on my character without SCH piety bonus, 20.3% of my total mp. FOR ONE ROTATION OF DOTS.
Now since Aetherflow exists, lets put this into a rotation fitting in with the CD of Aetherflow, and counting Contagion.
(159 x 2) + (133 x 2) + (106 x 3) + (212 x 2) + 186. Bio 2 Twice per minute, 40 second duration with Contagion (or so). Miasma 2 Twice per minute with contagion, 39 second max duration with contagion. Bio I 3 times per minute, 33 seconds max + 2 more casts per minute. Shadow Flare Twice per minute, 30 second duration.
Total MP Per minute = 1512 MP. or, 50.4% of Max MP per minute, when Contagion is used.
When Contagion ISNT used, the rotation looks like this.
159 x 2 + 133 x 3 + 106 x 3 + 212 x 2 for 1459 MP, or 48.6% of total MP per minute without Contagion.
Technically, the DPS increase from Contagion that you see is you spend 7.5 second less per minute casting dots, and you get increased Raging Strikes dots. You also gain 3 ruins due to that 7.5 seconds less of dot casting, so lets factor THAT in now, onto the Contagion rotation.
1512 MP + (79x3) = 1749 MP. So you spend 237 more MP per rotation when Contagion is used, every time it is used. (since 3 less dots recast = 3 more ruins) 1749 = 58.3% of max MP per rotation.
I havent factored in Aetherflow MP generation yet, so I'll do that now. Aetherflow = 20% Max MP per minute
Making Contagion Rotations have 38.3% of max MP per minute, non-contagion rotations having 28.6% max MP per rotation.
Again, remember that this isnt including total ruin casts per minute.
In the Contagion rotation, you spend 3 more GCD's casting Ruins over casting dots, that's already been factored in. On the normal rotation, you spend 14 GCD's casting Ruins(Math Below), so on a Contagion rotation that's 17.
Ruin casts = (60s - time spent casting dots /2.5)
60s / 2.5 s = 24 gcds/minute
10 gcds on DoTs without contagion - 24 gcd's/minute = 14 gcd's casting ruin MP cost of 14 ruins = 79 x 14 = 1106 MP/Minute or 1343 with contagion 1106 MP per minute is 36.8% of max MP / minute without contagion, on a non-contagion rotation you get 84.4% of max MP per minute, or 64.4% with Aetherflow.
Now to count 2% MP regen/3 seconds in combat + aetherflow for total MP drain per minute without contagion
1459 + 1106 = 2565 MP/Minute
Aetherflow on Miqote Sunseeker = 20% of 2998 = 599MP restored + 2% of 2998 = 59 mp / 3 seconds = 1199 MP from Natural Regen
= 599 + 1199 = 1798 MP / minute
2565 - 1798 = 867 MP per Minute or 28% of total MP per minute spent.