Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Odowla]

Can't stack them on the boss. It was too powerful and got nerfed. There is no point to to have two super-virus for one boss unless there's a high magic damage add in the fight which is not the case.

Essentially he's saying that it doesnt really matter if you have virus.. the big-hit attacks that need virus, already will be by the scholar. E4E is an ability all the casters have, the trait only reduces the cooldown, and the in battle raise.. yeah... not for 30% of my mp.

On another note. If summoner have the tools to compete, why the best Summoners of this game can't even reach the best Black Mages of this game. Look at Puro's E-peen sheet. Look at DnT Leaderboard scores. the highest BLMs have pulled for T10 to T13 are respectively 583, 556, 543, 529. The best parses I saw from SMNs are about 490 to 500. They need love, they can clear the game but they are behind. It's really sad when the best of SMNs pull the numbers of average BLMs.

Can confirm this, as well as all the SMN's in the FC have converted to BLM at the start of FCoB except for 2.

Their utility isnt enough, because its shared with other classes, their damage isnt enough because with perfect play, it's way lower than a moderately skilled black mage, and the only unique thing they bring as a DPS is completetly unusable because you get 1 raise before you're done with MP, when healers get 3-4 - and a DPS being able to help push the phase is infinitely more usefull than someone avoidably needing to be raised.

[Aikaal]

On another note. If summoner have the tools to compete, why the best Summoners of this game can't even reach the best Black Mages of this game. Look at Puro's E-peen sheet. Look at DnT Leaderboard scores. the highest BLMs have pulled for T10 to T13 are respectively 583, 556, 543, 529. The best parses I saw from SMNs are about 490 to 500. They need love, they can clear the game but they are behind. It's really sad when the best of SMNs pull the numbers of average BLMs.

[Cebo]

This is a lie. Let's look at those utility spells.

• Super Virus is reduced to a regular Virus because you have a Scholar. So both BLM and SMN Virus is negated.
• Eye for an Eye can be used by BLM, they are negated.
• Combat raise is not viable. You need mana and healers can handle 2 to 3 raises easily. In farm content, you will never combat raise because your party won't die to farm content. The only unique utility spell becomes void.

You missed my point, since it appears we'd be in agreement. I'm only saying SMN utility is better than BLM's in a vacuum, if you ignore the fact that other classes can provide that same utility, notably scholars. Since SMN utility is already covered by other classes, they don't bring anything of value to the raid.

[Romsca]

Ok, really. I'll explain my point better.

Yes, antibody sucks. But my summoner supervirus still trumps black mage and white mage virus in the event that an add spawns and scholar supervirus is on cooldown. I can think of a few times when there are adds in a boss fight and when more than one spawns.

Next e4e becomes stronger the more people in the group that use it. Let's limit it to just acn, sch and smn. That's 1 minute up time 1 minute down time. Now, sch, smn, whm, blm have it and all in the group. That looks like this; sch+smn 1 minute uptime, whm+blm 1 minute uptime sch+smn cooldown finished! sch+smn 1 minute uptime, 1 minute down time followed by all 4 cooldowns being finished. And having a couple players with it means both tanks can have it when dealing with adds and boss at same time.

And right now, no fixes or changes or adjustments or whatever from Square Enix, yes using resurrection is bad for summoner, except if for some reason both healers are down. It is flawed because of our mana pool size.

Finally, let us look at the value of the cross class skills smn/sch <-> blm. Surecast sucks and I don't need nor want blizzard 2. So only thing left of value from blm is swiftcast. Smn/sch gave up virus and e4e, both have decent value. How about blm give up scythe, swiftcast, sleep, and manaward. To sweeten the pot blm can have e4e, virus, resurrection and ruin.

Point is, utility skills are valuable when you use them every single time the are off cooldown, and in the case of virus when antibody is not present.

[Odowla]

Point is, utility skills are valuable when you use them every single time the are off cooldown, and in the case of virus when antibody is not present.

Both Aikaal and I just said, WHM and BLM Virus is equal to SMN Virus on Adds. There's ONE add in FCoB that does magic damage. ONE. Supervirus only lets virus affect magic damage. Sooooo... pretty much SMN virus = BLM/WHM Virus. There's also ONE add in SCoB that does magic Damage; The Ghosts of Meracydia in t9. And the damage you'd want to virus is unmitigable, anyways. BCoB doesnt have any that I can think of. So yeah, tell me when Virusing an add as a SMN is better than a WHM or a BLM?

E4E is unreliable, though - you could have it up for 3 minutes straight and have it never proc. But yeah, its a great spell, right? It COULD be useful.. but again, WHM and the BLM can have it, so it's not like SCH + SMN is > SCh/WHM/BLM by any significant margin, even considering the RNG aspect of E4E.

Surecast is great, actually - there are some hits that you get interupted, and using Surecast prevents that.

Blizz 2 has its uses, albeit not very many of them.

BLM has actual Unique Utility though; Manawall/Ward/Apocatastasis are unique in function and are exclusive to BLM only.

[Aikaal]

I know you are really convinced and trying hard but...

Yes, antibody sucks. But my summoner supervirus still trumps black mage and white mage virus in the event that an add spawns and scholar supervirus is on cooldown. I can think of a few times when there are adds in a boss fight and when more than one spawns.

There is not a single add that is worth virusing in this game that deal magic damage except the Sin at T13 that don't even matter. You'd still prefer Apoc the warrior for an Ahk Morn over a second super virus.

Next e4e becomes stronger the more people in the group that use it. Let's limit it to just acn, sch and smn. That's 1 minute up time 1 minute down time. Now, sch, smn, whm, blm have it and all in the group. That's now 3 minutes up time, 1 minute down time followed by all 4 cooldowns being finished.

This is true but you can,t relly on E4E. It's a proc chance. It is useful during adds phases like T12 and T13. WHm and SCH already have it. What,s the point to have two characters with two minute CD E4E? You don't need it up all the time.

And right now, no fixes or changes or adjustments or whatever from Square Enix, yes using resurrection is bad for summoner, except if for some reason both healers are down. It is flawed because of our mana pool size.

Yet again, it's a spell that both healers have. They have better mana then you and they'll take priority over you. In farm content, people don't die also.

Finally, let us look at the value of the cross class skills smn/sch <-> blm. Surecast sucks and I don't need nor want blizzard 2. So only thing left of value from blm is swiftcast. Smn/sch gave up virus and e4e, both have decent value. How about blm give up scythe, swiftcast, sleep, and manaward. To sweeten the pot blm can have e4e, virus, resurrection and ruin.

• Surecast has uses. It's not a waste. It was potent in T5.
• Blizzard II is 50 Potency per target. It's potent in AoE for SMN. Miasma II, Enkindle, Shadowflare are up and you contagion + bane on 4 targets (Like T12 and T13) 200 Potency > 80 Potency. Blizzard II is shit for BLMs.
• Sleep has no use in raid.
• Manaward is my level 30 ability jerk.
• Resurrection would give too much utility to BLM and I wouldn't even use.

Point is, utility skills are valuable when you use the every single time the are off cooldown, and in the case of virus when antibody is not present.

Any good Scholar will refuse someone to slip Viruses on the boss. It will screw him over.

[Romsca]

I know you are really convinced and trying hard but...



There is not a single add that is worth virusing in this game that deal magic damage except the Sin at T13 that don't even matter. You'd still prefer Apoc the warrior for an Ahk Morn over a second super virus.

.

This is true but you can,t relly on E4E. It's a proc chance. It is useful during adds phases like T12 and T13. WHm and SCH already have it. What,s the point to have two characters with two minute CD E4E? You don't need it up all the time.



Yet again, it's a spell that both healers have. They have better mana then you and they'll take priority over you. In farm content, people don't die also

• Surecast has uses. It's not a waste. It was potent in T5.
• Blizzard II is 50 Potency per target. It's potent in AoE for SMN. Miasma II, Enkindle, Shadowflare are up and you contagion + bane on 4 targets (Like T12 and T13) 200 Potency > 80 Potency. Blizzard II is shit for BLMs.
• Sleep has no use in raid.
• Manaward is my level 30 ability jerk.
• Resurrection would give too much utility to BLM and I wouldn't even use.

Any good Scholar will refuse someone to slip Viruses on the boss. It will screw him over.

content design flaw, not profession flaw
As opposed to not having it up as much as possible? Guess we should scrap out block, parry, dodge, misses...
No arguement on that single situation.
Niche.
Niche.
This isn't Final Raid: Coils of Bahamut. Lot more content outside.
That's nice.
See first and sixth sentence.
Glad to know resurrection has utility
That's fine, I'll virus the adds instead.

[Aikaal]

content design flaw, not profession flaw
As opposed to not having it up as much as possible? Guess we should scrap out block, parry, dodge, misses...
No arguement on that single situation.
Niche.
Niche.
This isn't Final Raid: Coils of Bahamut. Lot more content outside.
Glad to know resurrection has utility
That's fine, I'll virus the adds instead.

Most warriors and paladins have det and crit because they can take the hits easily in farm content. This includes the hardest fights in this game : T10 to T13.

Outside of FCoB is the old content that is extremely easy to overpower. There is WoD where you have zero to six Scholars. Your Virus won't be needed.

Resurrection would be useful on BLM because they have infinite mana. Summoner don't. It roughly takes 30% of your mana pool and if you spam Energy drain, you lose the DPS you are already lacking.

Virusing the adds voids that super-virus buff making it equal to BLM so you don't get that gain.

All these reasons I typed are the reasons why a thread like this exists. Summoners can't compete.

[Romsca]

Most warriors and paladins have det and crit because they can take the hits easily in farm content. This includes the hardest fights in this game : T10 to T13.

Outside of FCoB is the old content that is extremely easy to overpower. There is WoD where you have zero to six Scholars. Your Virus won't be needed.

Resurrection would be useful on BLM because they have infinite mana. Summoner don't. It roughly takes 30% of your mana pool and if you spam Energy drain, you lose the DPS you are already lacking.

Virusing the adds voids that super-virus buff making it equal to BLM so you don't get that gain.

All these reasons I typed are the reasons why a thread like this exists. Summoners can't compete.

Again and again, DESIGN FLAW NOT PROFFESION FLAW. Yes black mage has infinite mana though umbral ice phase mechanic. Summoner should have been designed with a very large mana pool, possibly over 4k so that the return on both aetherflow and incombat man regen tick would balance out their mana costs and upkeep, and any extreme circumstances, use of energy drain.

Smn is not the same playstyle as blm, we have our strengths and you have yours. I think the current version of smn needs some tweaks, piety to mana and weapon damage mainly, but to say our utility sucks or we can't compete is strictly due to content design that plays against our strengths.

[Romsca]

Summoner virus reduces str, dex, int, and mnd by 15%. Whm/blm only str and dex. Summoner virus still better. What you are discussing is content design flaws. Not summoners fault that Square Enix made the damage types physical or unmitigable, and SCoB turn 2 final add is caster type. Also from a lore point there is no reason why Arcanist/summoner can't use scathe, sleep or manaward, which are thaumaturge skills, not black mage. Job skills are not available for cross class, only the base class skills are.