I want to stop playing Summoner.... But I cant

[Tex_Mex]

snip

While I agree with your assessment that Final Coil was designed to be very melee heavy, as well as that being a major part of why SMN has been left behind, I disagree with the idea that it is ok for content to be easier for one party than the next due to composition. And I know you only see final coil as a small part of the game, but it is ALL of the content that us hardcore raiding guys have to work with. And that will be the case for a couple more months.

There is no time in T10-T13 where a SMN is a better choice than a BLM. Not one. And that is the real issue. BLM ST damage should not be higher than SMN, unless SMN can make it up in another way, like utility. Currently, they cannot due to several issues, most of which are revolving around MP management/Final Coil design/gear imbalance. Since Final Coil can't be redesigned, I would like to see SMN adjusted so at least it will be a viable alternative to a BLM for final coil.

[ChazNatlo]

Quotation.

Well no. Obviously you can't balance for the bads, if they're bad enough you might as well balance it for my cat to play. But assuming you have two people of equivalent (good) talent and gear levels play ST, primarily distinguished by the class they play, shouldn't they feel like they're contributing near equal amounts to the fights, within acceptable variance of "x" class being better in "y" scenario and for classes where that matters, RNG.

I'm not saying Summoner shouldn't be buffed, from what I'm hearing, it could use one. I'm just saying we shouldn't completely ignore lower tier play when thinking of ways to balance the classes.

[Akiza]

Yes, this is true...but you also can't judge endgame by ONE type of content.
Especially when no matter what content you're doing, we have typically 4 party slots open to 'DPS roles' and 6 available roles to fill them. No matter how you cut the cookie, someone's getting left out. In the past, it was melee. People basically preferred 2 mages/1 bard/1 melee. Now with the DRG adjustments, NIN being added, and some of the mechanic's issues/longevity that happens in Final Coil, parties are preferring to go in with 2 melee and 2 ranged...one ranged still being given to bard.

Also, this is content that currently is mostly being done by 'dedicated teams'...meaning the actual roles people play is less important in favor of group synergy. Many groups simply found it easier to go in with a BLM over having both BLM/SMN...they had to pick one. But again, it's not as much SMN sucks as much as 'finally, content people prefer having 2 melee in' ...but 2 melee come at the cost of having 2 mages. 2 of ANY mages.

Still, the next flavor of the month endgame elite content to come out....it might be all caster heavy again.
...or the new, level 50+ skillsets each role gains might change the dynamics again as well
...or things might be re-balanced

It's ONE type of content. Basing whether or not you wish to continue to play a role (which is what the OP was about), based on ONE type of content is silly. Play what you want...if it needs to be rebalanced, it will be...but also, it's not near as bad as people make it out to be. This content is currently clearable with a SMN in the party. Some might say 'but it's harder'....maybe that 'harder' is what SE intended, and people not doing it that way are actually pushing above and beyond what SE expected (which happens often btw...take the recent 'NIN nerfs' as an example).

Basically, your idea of 'balanced' might not be SE's idea of 'balanced' Nor is basing your idea of balance on ONE series of battles atm really wise. If every new endgame set of content introduced over the next several patches had a 'SMN issue', then yes, your side would have a point (which is what DID happen to DRGs). But one new series of content...one major patch away from an expansion/level cap increase, nothing to sweat over. Huge adjustments to ALL roles (including the addition of 3 more raid jobs), inc.

So people who love and main SMN, hang tight. It's only one patch of content.
People who bandwagon...be ready to have to totally re-gear when 3.0 lands because you need to jump onto the next wagon...whatever role that might now be.

Final Coil is the only type of endgame in 2.4 that matters so the Summoner should be balanced around that. Progression statics ran 2 melee and caster setup pre 2.4 and SE adjusted Black Mage because they were excluded from content. Now that the Summoner is being excluded from Final Coils SE has chose to ignore it.

[Kinseykinz]

I disagree with the idea that it is ok for content to be easier for one party than the next due to composition. And I know you only see final coil as a small part of the game, but it is ALL of the content that us hardcore raiding guys have to work with. And that will be the case for a couple more months.

But see here's the problem. It is nigh on impossible for every 'important' battle to be 100% equally balanced at all times for every role to perform equally on. Because in order to have THAT happen, you'd lose some of the very things that make each role unique...or you'd risk the potential of over-compensating and 'fixing' a role for one battle it is less viable in...only to make it OP in another battle (of equal importance). I get it sucks to be the guy on the role that is being left out...especially if you are capable of doing the battle.

And therein once again lies the rub. It's not that SMN's can't do final coil...it's that other roles are more adept to it. I am saying, it's okay for other roles to shine...as long as it's limited/which roles shine change depending on the content....and as long as the content is still doable with a mix of all available roles. Which currently it is.

Sure, the endgame, elite, dedicated team/static crowd are going to do things the Min/Max BiS...fastest/easiest way. And more power to them. But that doesn't mean it's the only way...or even the 'right' way. Nor am I saying there's not an issue...but, my suspicion is the issue will be 'ignored' until 3.0 because with the level cap increase, new skills/spells (and a pet in smn's case) will be added that will likely sort the issue out. My observation is that SMN likely is about as peaked as it can be for 'level 50' and making any real adjustments (like those that have been suggested), might 'solve' this Final Coil issue...but might create further imbalance not only down the road, but within current content. (Like EX primals and BC2).

So since having differences in party roles seems important (otherwise they are the same job reskinned) and since an expansion w/ new skills and level cap in inc, I think it's wiser to take a 'wait and see' approach. It could also be that the mechanics in Final Coil need adjusted a bit vs adjusting SMN....adjusting the coil itself (not nerfing btw...just adjusting), might actually be the more logical approach at this point in the game development/life.

[Tex_Mex]

snip

The release of this final coil brought SMN issuesback to the forefront again because the class has not seen any significant changes in the past few patches. While I agree that perfect balance around every fight in the game is impossible, shouldn't at least 1 of the final 4 coil fights be something that SMN excels at?

As it stands now, not one fight in final coil is more suited to SMN than it is to BLM. Not one. 0/4, and that is very disheartening to me. It also suggests that the issues with the class go a bit beyond just coil design issues. MP management, utility, and ST dps are all areas that the SMN class is really hurting right now. Most people agree that SMN should have higher ST DPS than BLM, since it has much lower AoE DPS, but even this is not a reality. SMN is completely overshadowed by BLM at the moment and feels like the DRG of ranged classes (before the last patch that buffed DRG of course)

[Sequora]

So since having differences in party roles seems important (otherwise they are the same job reskinned) and since an expansion w/ new skills and level cap in inc, I think it's wiser to take a 'wait and see' approach.

Gear could easily be adjusted. We either have to pick spellspeed, or an overabundance of accuracy. Hell even both of our i130 weapons have spellspeed on them. Every other dreadwyrm DPS weapon has bis stats of some variation. It's been tested to death that spellspeed has a negligible effect on our DPS. This is not true for any other DPS class in the game. Melee/BRD tend to prefer det/crit over skillspeed, but skillspeed does boost their DPS. When asked about the crazy amount of spellspeed they simply said that there are only so many options for stat combos, yet we were effected the hardest? Spellspeed may be revamped for the expansion, but by that time this gear will be very obsolete.

[Lavieh]

Snip

Your argument is a little flawed and nor do you seem to really understand the real problem here.

First of all - When gauging DPS everything should be put into a vacuum and you should always consider the perfect scenario for every situation. This is why we can effectively do test Dummy comparisons and easily find out that SMN is not just weaker but weaker by a good bit than their other casting counter part, who has very similar strength/weakness than SMN does. If anything taking their Strengths vs. Their weakness and putting it on paper you could easily see that SMN should be pretty much on top for FCoB - But this isn't the case. The damage spread that BLM has over smn is huge, not to mention that buffs like Selene's SPS and Foe Req give a BLM more mileage than they do a SMN.

Second : You can't over-compensate for a balanced buff if it brings the class into balance. Fact of the matter is FCoB right now is our endgame and SE is still developing the new endgame, they can easily develop it in a way that would make whatever changes they give SMN will have no impact on the new fights. Worst case scenario they can always nerf SMN if they get to strong in later content, but that is the cycle - That is how a Meta should work. Look at League of legends, a beautiful example of a shifting meta based on buffs/nerfs. If we just stop continuing the circle and say "Well this class isn't good right now, but IT may be good later" then we just leave a class out - Which is stupid. Again though, SE has the ability to design their content and they can easily ensure that SMN would not go unchecked in future content.

[Akiza]

But see here's the problem. It is nigh on impossible for every 'important' battle to be 100% equally balanced at all times for every role to perform equally on. Because in order to have THAT happen, you'd lose some of the very things that make each role unique...or you'd risk the potential of over-compensating and 'fixing' a role for one battle it is less viable in...only to make it OP in another battle (of equal importance). I get it sucks to be the guy on the role that is being left out...especially if you are capable of doing the battle.

And therein once again lies the rub. It's not that SMN's can't do final coil...it's that other roles are more adept to it. I am saying, it's okay for other roles to shine...as long as it's limited/which roles shine change depending on the content....and as long as the content is still doable with a mix of all available roles. Which currently it is.

Sure, the endgame, elite, dedicated team/static crowd are going to do things the Min/Max BiS...fastest/easiest way. And more power to them. But that doesn't mean it's the only way...or even the 'right' way. Nor am I saying there's not an issue...but, my suspicion is the issue will be 'ignored' until 3.0 because with the level cap increase, new skills/spells (and a pet in smn's case) will be added that will likely sort the issue out. My observation is that SMN likely is about as peaked as it can be for 'level 50' and making any real adjustments (like those that have been suggested), might 'solve' this Final Coil issue...but might create further imbalance not only down the road, but within current content. (Like EX primals and BC2).

So since having differences in party roles seems important (otherwise they are the same job reskinned) and since an expansion w/ new skills and level cap in inc, I think it's wiser to take a 'wait and see' approach. It could also be that the mechanics in Final Coil need adjusted a bit vs adjusting SMN....adjusting the coil itself (not nerfing btw...just adjusting), might actually be the more logical approach at this point in the game development/life.

Min/Maxers decide the optimal party set up and everyone other endgame team/static follows that even if SE states other party compositions can complete it. Jobs should be designed around min/maxers not the minimum required to complete hardcore content because min/maxers decide if a job is viable or if it dies. Look at WoW and what happened to the Warlock Blizzard was saying the class was fine but since min/maxers decided it wasn't optimal to bring to endgame raiding the Warlock population died. The only thing Blizzard can do to resurrect the Warlock is to completely redesign it. In order to save the Summoner without breaking Scholar SE has to completely redesign it.

[Dextro]

A lot of interesting points being made recently.
Indeed, content design plays a very big role in how strong/weak a job is regarded:

(This list refers to balance at the time of release)***

- 1st Coil:
T1: SMN - Multi-doting and ability to kite slimes.
T2: Balanced - SMN had some utility in Supervirus, due to M-DMG enemy attacks.
T4: Balanced - A mix of AoE and Split-enemy placement; a very balanced fight.
T5: SMN - Pet soaking, Miasma > Lethargy, clutch battle raises were a thing.

2nd Coil:
T6: SMN - High-movement and RNG mechanic choices hinder BLM.
T7: SMN - Kiting & multi-doting.
T8: BLM - Very high uptime, no mp issues.
T9: Balanced

Final Coil:
T10: BLM - High uptime, no mp issues.
T11: BLM - Same as above + resistances hinder SMN multi-doting.
T12: BLM - This is the closest turn to being balanced; SMN has utility in Bluefire, but BLM raw damage and on-demand burst wins.
T13: BLM - High uptime, no mp issues. Also, Apocatastasis is huge here.

[Judge_Xero]

A lot of interesting points being made recently.

Very good points and I really like your break down.

T6: I feel was pretty balanced for both classes. BLM had some good AOE potential with Bulbs and Bees. The LOS method made movement a non-issue for BLM and with vines you could have a more mobile class do the breaking. (this is all splitting hairs of course but, just saying Second Coil was very well tuned for all classes)

T10: BLM - High uptime, no mp issues. - Decent Multi-Dot potential for SMN and using Ifrit raises SMN single target damage to a comparable level.
T11: BLM - Same as above + resistances hinder SMN multi-doting. - Ifrit Pet Soak for Repelling Cannons lessens healer strain - But overall BLM does have an easier time as the only Caster.
T12: BLM - This is the closest turn to being balanced; SMN has utility in Bluefire, but BLM raw damage and on-demand burst wins. - SMN with Ifrit has great single target damage for this phase as well as multi-dot potential with Bennus (Phase 1-2) - SMN has the best controlled AOE damage for the Bennu phase especially with 2 melee. The Blue/Red fire utility SMN has I'd say is trumped by Bard, since bard can use down time to regain TP anyways.

IMO
T10 - Balanced
T11 - BLM
T12 - SMN
T13 - I do not have enough experience to comment on this turn.