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  1. #1
    Player
    Samcaesar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomoru View Post
    Mobility is a greater advantage than strength on the steppes, as is stamina. Large size can be a hinderance to stamina thus why the Mongolian pony wasn't a giant war horse.
    Learning a few more things from the various clans I don't really think any of that's the case, like the horses in Othard seem quite capable of keeping up to speed with men Au Ra riding them (Looking at the Goro and Noykin).

    Heck the Steppes isn't even a traditional Steppes environment, the central parts seem to be more grasslands, but the Western Steppes feature several tribes who actively live in caves, more mountainous areas, coastlines, rivers, and deserts. It's a really diverse area!

    While food might not be too plentiful though nutrition doesn't seem to be too big of a concern, one tribe manages twin births at a 33% chance, trade occurs fairly regularly between some tribes as well, heck there's even a tribe that takes pride in how much they eat and looking overweight. There's also reference of animals like goats, mammoths, tigers, and horses, which seems to indicate that things like animal fat and protein isn't too hard to get.

    War tactics seem to be pretty variable as well, looking at the Xaela's in game stat distribution and the lack of mention of magic usage in combat, it seems they rely on a mixture of swarming, raw overpowering, archery, some javelin stuff and even some stuff with poison blowdarts. Even armor isn't completely unheard of look Qerel, who kill tigers with their own hands as a coming of age ceremony. Not every clan fights, but brute strength is definitely a wanted characteristic, looking at the Malqir's description "A western steppe tribe characterized by its unique leader-choosing ritual which, instead of the usual test of brawn, is a game of Kharaqiq--a chess-like game played on a circular board divided into three rings." The notation of a "Usual test of brawn" seems to indicate that strength is valuable, and it doesn't take too much of a leap in logic to assume that the "usual test of brawn" is well liked because "Brawn" is good for battle.

    Even then, how would a tribe like the Buduga survive and succeed in battle if it was that much of an issue?

    Lots of factors are still unknown, but the Xaela tribes deploy a lot of diverse strategies to survive in the steppes, I wouldn't discount strength as much as you do.
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  2. #2
    Player
    jomoru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samcaesar View Post
    Learning a few more things from the various clans I don't really think any of that's the case, like the horses in Othard seem quite capable of keeping up to speed with men Au Ra riding them (Looking at the Goro and Noykin).
    Not really. There are different breeds of horses IRL. Some are great for someone like the Rock riding on them into battle. Some are great for Riding 5 days straight with little rest. Unless you want to start talking about magically effective horses the horses the males ride will have difficulties based on the size of the males. Now there clearly seems to be some advantage to male size BUT I am saying its also clearly not this insurmountable win that people seem to keep saying.

    There is one male tribe that only recruits via kidnapping. There is one female tribe that hands off the males. There is one female tribe that dominates their males. And there's one tribe that's famous for its women having large male harems. Those are the only tribes we hear about placing any particular importance on biological sex. So we can assume GENERALLY whatever advantages strength gives is cancelled out by other factors leaving both sides more or less equal with a potential point of slight female empowerment because there are more clans that favor them than men however both are extreme aberations out of 51 clans.



    Heck the Steppes isn't even a traditional Steppes environment, the central parts seem to be more grasslands, but the Western Steppes feature several tribes who actively live in caves, more mountainous areas, coastlines, rivers, and deserts. It's a really diverse area!
    Not really? Its clearly based on the Eurasian Steppe which includes all these things especially if you count where it runs into edges of things.


    While food might not be too plentiful though nutrition doesn't seem to be too big of a concern, one tribe manages twin births at a 33% chance, trade occurs fairly regularly between some tribes as well, heck there's even a tribe that takes pride in how much they eat and looking overweight. There's also reference of animals like goats, mammoths, tigers, and horses, which seems to indicate that things like animal fat and protein isn't too hard to get.
    Its not about food being plentiful its about them being nomadic herders/hunters Now the more sendentary types might pull away from these points but I'm broadly focusing on the need for the clans to be moving fairly often.


    War tactics seem to be pretty variable as well, looking at the Xaela's in game stat distribution and the lack of mention of magic usage in combat, it seems they rely on a mixture of swarming, raw overpowering, archery, some javelin stuff and even some stuff with poison blowdarts. Even armor isn't completely unheard of look Qerel, who kill tigers with their own hands as a coming of age ceremony. Not every clan fights, but brute strength is definitely a wanted characteristic, looking at the Malqir's description "A western steppe tribe characterized by its unique leader-choosing ritual which, instead of the usual test of brawn, is a game of Kharaqiq--a chess-like game played on a circular board divided into three rings." The notation of a "Usual test of brawn" seems to indicate that strength is valuable, and it doesn't take too much of a leap in logic to assume that the "usual test of brawn" is well liked because "Brawn" is good for battle.

    Even then, how would a tribe like the Buduga survive and succeed in battle if it was that much of an issue?

    Lots of factors are still unknown, but the Xaela tribes deploy a lot of diverse strategies to survive in the steppes, I wouldn't discount strength as much as you do.
    I am not discounting strength. I just think its being highly overvalued by those who think that the Sexual dymorphism and "barbarian" qualities of the Xaela mean extreme patriachal tendencies. To me its clear that both sides generally are equal whatever advantages size gives to the males are cancelled out and its not based on females being more magical or anything.
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    Last edited by jomoru; 06-19-2015 at 05:03 PM.

  3. #3
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    Samcaesar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomoru View Post
    Snip .
    Yeah, such as Destrier class horses, ones notably bred to hold up a man in full armor when they go into battle. Like, maybe they can't run endlessly forever, but they definitely don't seem to have issues being used in battle. It's not a total win, shoot poison blowdarts kill no matter how big you are, but brute strength does help in battle, as there's a good bit of difference being hit with a weapon and being hit with a weapon backed by some serious power.

    Only one specific male only tribe does that, but other tribes were noted for assimilating other tribes into them. I still think it's a little difficult to suspend your disbelief that much as to think the Burlaaq would survive for too long without also having physical advantages to cover weak points in the tribe's structure that just aren't present on their model.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samcaesar View Post
    Yeah, such as Destrier class horses, ones notably bred to hold up a man in full armor when they go into battle. Like, maybe they can't run endlessly forever, but they definitely don't seem to have issues being used in battle. It's not a total win, shoot poison blowdarts kill no matter how big you are, but brute strength does help in battle, as there's a good bit of difference being hit with a weapon and being hit with a weapon backed by some serious power.

    Only one specific male only tribe does that, but other tribes were noted for assimilating other tribes into them. I still think it's a little difficult to suspend your disbelief that much as to think the Burlaaq would survive for too long without also having physical advantages to cover weak points in the tribe's structure that just aren't present on their model.
    Europeans had bigger horses armored knights and when the mongols came they got slaughtered. Brute force is nice. Playing to your advantages is even better. Clearly the Burlaaq can play to their advantages and those advantages don't have to be "females are more magical" I mean no one questions why the Roe haven't conquered every aspect of Eorzea but the idea that smaller types might succeed with the Xaela.. that's just crazy!

    Also notice how I'm not saying the Burlaaq are an unstoppable unbeatable force that has conquered all the other clans who waste their time having males around. I am not discounting strength. I am not discounting the advantages of a more balanced society. Hyperfocused society is more likely to ultimately hit a problem it cannot solve. I am saying it doesn't require magic or a suspension of disbelief(any more than the questionable biology of the game in general) for there to be a focused female group.
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    Last edited by jomoru; 06-19-2015 at 05:13 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomoru View Post
    Snip
    Hit and run tactics work best when the opponents are very much so unprepared, when people know they're coming and have time to set up things like traps and proper defenses, they don't work nearly as well. Like stuff like chainmail was specifically made to counter arrows, while shields and phalanx esque strategies worked fairly well against horses and oncoming arrows from moving targets to stationary ones. The mongols were powerful, but not unbeatable, plenty of debate questions if the Mongols would have survived against people who play defensive warfare much better. It's pretty clear (Imho) why the Roegadyn haven't conquered all of Eorzea, culturally speaking the Hellsguard are very solitary and prefer to keep in Alabatha, while the Sea Wolves are quite content with ruling the seas as they're pretty notable pirates. Heck, things like this are addressed within the story, like how on Hydaelyn are the Ishgardians able to fight against dragons or how did the Company of Heroes fight primals, the Burlaaq I would appreciate a similar answer that isn't so outrageous (Like they use sex appeal to fool men into dropping their guards or something).

    No, but you aren't giving a reason on why the Burlaaq, who (going off from the Au Ra model) seem to lack muscular strength (From both looking at a model and considering their mannerisms and the design they were made with), would even stand a chance against groups like the Adarkim or the Dorthal who probably have mixed forces. Either the Burlaaq were more physically closer to the men and SE just didn't feel like making a model just for them (Reasonable imho) or there's some weird unthinkable tactic that the Burlaaq employ to manage to be "Warriors" and continue to survive.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samcaesar View Post
    snip.
    They use their superior mobility to not get bogged down in combat where the males can't be made much use of. This isn't complicated complex or crazy but apparently you can't grasp anytghing but " MEN ARE TALLER THEY MUST WIN!" I mean game mechanics wise men are taller.. and aren't an ounce stronger. Think about that.
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  7. #7
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    Niwashi's Avatar
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    Y'kayah Tia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samcaesar View Post
    Hit and run tactics work best when the opponents are very much so unprepared, when people know they're coming and have time to set up things like traps and proper defenses, they don't work nearly as well.
    In other words, hit and run tactics are ideally suited to use against groups like the Xaela clans. Nomads won't have extensive fortifications. Speed, agility, and endurance are the traits that win wars in such an environment. Brute strength would at times come in useful as well, but not nearly as often.
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    Last edited by Niwashi; 06-23-2015 at 07:08 AM.