SMN mp needs sorting out

[Krr]

How can you prove that SMN dps is low if dps meters are not even allowed in this game. Sometimes i m in the pug groups that link dps from their meters and all meters usually show you different numbers, because numbers are not accurate and usually those can not not count dots very well so SMN is hardest dps calculate.

So then, if every parser on earth is unreliable and wrong, how do you know if the SMN's DPS is balanced 'just right' in raid content, and 'the strongest' in all other encounters? The undisputable logical power of conjecture and feelings without factual data? A combat log and an abacus?

[Sunako]

So then, if every parser on earth is unreliable and wrong, how do you know if the SMN's DPS is balanced 'just right' in raid content, and 'the strongest' in all other encounters? The undisputable logical power of conjecture and feelings without factual data? A combat log and an abacus?

I m not saying it is balanced but thats what it should be. It is pretty logical because you can 100% fester in easy content so you should be top dps + you can use double aetherflow stacks in the begin of the fight that give u pretty big handicap compared other classes. I do not have any numbers because i m not using that kind of tools. I only have theory how things should work and usually every skill have some kind of purpose why those are in the ability list. In this case energy drain is on our ability list for purpose once we need mana.

[Zholi]

How can you prove that SMN dps is low if dps meters are not even allowed in this game. Sometimes i m in the pug groups that link dps from their meters and all meters usually show you different numbers, because numbers are not accurate and usually those can not not count dots very well so SMN is hardest dps calculate.

EDIT:And i m not saying summoner is doing good or bad dps and i do not even care in this tread because we are talking about mana issues not actual dps. The thing what ppl are requesting is removing mana bar from summoners. Removing mechanics from summoners is not right way fix the job, that is my opinion.

News flash: there isn't a single high end raiding group in the game that doesn't use meters. The devs know about it and have demonstrated that they don't mind. Also our meters are usually the same numbers give or take 1-5 DPS.

The problem here is we're talking about numbers, and you refuse to use them, so your argument is literally meaningless. You really can't talk about SMN's DPS in relation to other classes if you don't even know what SMN and other classes do.

Also MP isn't the only issue here. Even with infinite MP, we'd still be competing for worst DPS in the game. The reason we do more DPS in shorter fights is not only because we run dry on MP, but because we have double Aetherflow stacks at the beginning of a fight, so our beginning-of-fight burst is reasonably high. The longer a fight goes, the smaller that portion of the fight becomes, and the more our DPS falls.

[Mature]

When running out of mp use less festers and more energy drain simple as that.

Might as well go Sch dpsing......plenty of mp to use none stop

I hope SE is reading this and I wonder if the jp community said a thing about it

[Zumi]

Might as well go Sch dpsing......plenty of mp to use none stop

I hope SE is reading this and I wonder if the jp community said a thing about it

SCH doesn't have a pet that does damage.

[Akiza]

SE needs to reduce the cool down of Enkindle to 60s then it'll be in line with other DPS jobs.

[Mature]

I understand that mp is not the only issue here but is the KEY problem for lowest dpsing. Just an example I can comfortably hit 430+ dps no echo in SCOB but if I do my same rotation on T10 I drop to 245 and hardly touching 300.... Due to the fact I already run out of mp by second set of adds....

[Ronove]

I don't think people are requesting to remove the mana bar from a SMN but make doing what we need to do to stay competitive a little easier with a little more mana. As a SMN I don't think I should have unlimited mana--I know that's not fair, but I also don't think it's fair I have to go above and beyond to stay close to our BLM in Final Coil, but when I do that, I run out of mana. It doesn't feel balanced this way. Yes, you can compare SMN to melee then but unlike melee, SMN doesn't get a personal ballad. Melee + bard need TP song around the same time so it's not as much as a DPS loss compared to if a BRD just did ballad for SMN. So we have SMN with BLM (class buddies akin to drg, mnk, brd, and nin being class buddies) and BLM never needs ballad and that itself I think is unbalanced in that aspect.

Regardless, yes BLM have to go into Umbral to get MP back but their Blizz III, Blizz I still does about the same or more damage than an Energy Drain if I recall (I don't have time to do my own testing). After one Blizz III+Thunder II or Blizz III+Thunder I+Blizz I, BLM have full MP to go back to their Fire casting. And that's rinse and repeat. Yes, SMN has Aetherflow but if you're already just about OOM when you hit it, that mana you get is going to be gone if you go back to your regular rotation. Yes, you can use a stack or more to do energy drain to get a nice buffer of MP but compared to a BLM's umbral stage, SMN are still doing less damage--we can't just return to our regular rotation like a BLM can. I really don't mind using Energy Drain to get my MP back; I fully know that's what it's for and will use it if I need it, but if I have to use two or more so I don't have to plead for ballad, it starts to make me wonder why I didn't just roll BLM.

I understand that mp is not the only issue here but is the KEY problem for lowest dpsing. Just an example I can comfortably hit 430+ dps no echo in SCOB but if I do my same rotation on T10 I drop to 245 and hardly touching 300.... Due to the fact I already run out of mp by second set of adds....

I think you're doing something terribly wrong if you drop to anything under 300. I can do 430 in T10 without completely running out of mana (though yes, I come close by second set of adds--our first week in there I did run out of mana but I've done it enough times to know when and where I can use my regular rotation and where I have to cut back), although I do use one aetherflow stack for energy drain during the last phase to make sure I don't run out completely.

[Ryans]

You can actually, if you think about how their MP is used and what all three have to do to regain it. SCH/SMN have basically the same regen tools and WHM has Shroud. All three WILL run into MP issues in drawn out fights if they are pushing their classes to the max possible (healing/stance dancing/dpsing). SCH may be able to delay that a bit longer than SMN/WHM but it WILL happen no matter what any of them do. The problem between the three of them now is that SMN will run dry a LOT sooner than the other two, leading to the "not playing Ballad solely for a SMN" issue. Get the SMN MP consumption in line with the healer level and Ballad would be timed appropriately for all three.

As far as the BLM MP system being the problem... whatever you're smoking I want some. Just because a single class has a unique MP system in the game that lets them cast continually, we're to completely gut that class and rebuild it from scratch (taking away that unique system) due to SMNs not being able to do their optimal rotation forever? O_o

That's like burning down the house to kill an ant. You would completely destroy what a BLM is were you to eliminate the Astral/Umbral system. No one is saying that SMNs need to be infinitely self-sustaining like a BLM, people are saying the MP system of the SMN needs to be tweaked to improve their staying power at max DPS levels to match the length of fights the devs are creating.

Again... you can't compare healers to DDs. Healers mana consumption is dictated by the damage the party is taking. Those numbers fluctuate depending on the performance of the rest of the party. DDs have a consistent resource usage.

As for Blms. There is no reason to bring a class that needs extra attention to perform as well as its competition. I think that is agreed upon. Now the only way to alleviate that is to make all the casters either have unlimited resources or make all casters need the same extra attention. That is the formula for melee. They all need bard. That should also be the formula for all casters.

[Viridiana]

They all need bard. That should also be the formula for all casters.

I disagree. Why should BRD be required in all progression groups?