So BLM as AOE covered, MNK has single target... What does SMN bring?

[ShinryuReishiki]

Correct me if Im wrong, but the SMN job got several DPS boosts already from earlier patches. And you still want more.

There have been some small buffs, like Bio II cost reduced, 5 potency boost on Ifrit's stun/AOE attacks, cast time removed from Garuda's AOE attack. None of it really compares to losing a 240 potency spell (Thunder) and losing Spell Speed's effect on pets. Not saying they should get it back, just that they've been nerfed more than buffed.

[ViviAnimus]

Oh look, another Monk that acts as if it was so hard for Monks back in the day. Even before the buff, I knew people who were top tier. Monks have been top tier for more than 10 months now? I really don't know what your rant is all about. Monk is such an easy class to play as well. Or at least a lot easier as people make it seem.
Dragon kick is magic reduction. I don't know about you, but since T1, has every boss been purely physical attack? If not, how can you say that the skill has been useless for so long? It's only prominent now that you are fighting Bahamut who deals so much damage and it becomes noticable. Doesn't mean is was never there?
The Summoner never got any real DPS boosts. It got nerfed in the earlier stages of the game, got an MP reduction on a skill and Ifrit has a DPS increase which is pretty much meaningless. And you say it with such audacity. Monks and GS wasn't buff enough? Monks arguably got the biggest buff out of all the classes, so stop pointing fingers, mate.

[ViviAnimus]

And finally, the truth is that Summoners do need a DPS increase. Their class is a lot harder to play than Monk. Or at least equally easy. Each class is easy to play. The only difference is, especially in FCoB, that Monks can reach high numbers without even trying. We are talking about a 100 more DPS at least in T10 and 11. On T12, monks can STILL outshine Summoner and on T13 they again easily outshine Summoner. Actually, every class but BRD outshines Summoner when it comes to DPS. The only class that is somewhat less easy to play is Ninja. How can people even claim that Summoner does not need a buff? Always this useless crap about how is has Raise and E4E and virus. Delete those things then! They're rarely used anyway and make them a DPS class instead of a so called support caster class.

[ViviAnimus]

@ Judge zero, that doesn't even make sense. It needs an adjustment but not right now, is what you're saying. Basically, if it's up to you, we have to wait until the discrepancy in DPS increases and then we can finally give Summoners a buff. Sufficient DPS is just such a stupid argument. They are being left out, not welcomed in end raiding content because they do not bring the numbers. People don't look at sufficient, people look at maximization.

[Leonus]

Basically, no matter what happens, there will always be a 'useless' class.

Starting to realize that now, because top tier raiders will always try to maximize efficiency and that requires leaving someone out.
This then effects everyone else by setting the standard of x-party combination is best. Then that's what people aim for in their own parties.

It's really silly. Also, these comments of 'everyone can't be dragoons' is offensive. Personally, I don't think any class in the game has been so ostracized since release and looked at negatively with such harsh requirements for dps than drg. The buffs they got, we're long overdue.

Do I think smn deserves some love? Sure. Maybe their own separate gear or better Mp management tools.

[Havenchild]

Correct me if Im wrong, but the SMN job got several DPS boosts already from earlier patches. And you still want more. I guess you just want the highest DPS while having the range and survivability of a BRD and the ease to play of a DRG.

We cant all be dragoons, yea.

I hardly see SMNs asking for direct potency increases. Most are asking for very specific balance changes, like MP adjustment for example, which in itself increases the DPS a Summoner is capable of gaining over a fight without breaking the game because it fixes the OOM issue so early into these fights. You do not need to adjust potency of skills to properly balance a class. QoL changes in SMN case is enough to balance it.

By your logic, DRGs should have stayed where they were because they didn't need to be catered to (already capable of doing solid DPS / survivalbility was lower). Classes should ALWAYS be balanced for the end-game raid. True balance of a class simply means that each player while handling mechanics can perform optimally and essentially can all pull solid numbers dependent on the player. MNK would have no use (Outside of Dragon Kick) if DRG and NIN were out DPSing it. Food for thought.

PS: Also Good SMNs tend to play melee style for auto attacks, which means le gasp, we tend to handle the same mechanics like melee does with the same amount of danger.

[Dextro]

I hardly see SMNs asking for direct potency increases. Most are asking for very specific balance changes, like MP adjustment for example, which in itself increases the DPS a Summoner is capable of gaining over a fight without breaking the game

It's a lot more complicated than that, because most suggested buffs to SMN (Aetherflow, MP Costs, Potency increase, cross-class Thunder, Energy Drain buff etc.) would all affect SCH too.

SCH's DPS is already very potent within endgame, all the while handling their healing duties and being able to take care of additional mechanics such as T12 Bluefire.
Buffing any of the above-mentioned things would be tipping the scales of healer balance further and further in SCH's favour.
This isn't an issue now since healer choice isn't as competitive as DPS (2 healer roles, 2 healer raid slots), but consider when Astrologian is released, it'll be more competing for WHMs spot... not SCH's.

They have to be really careful with how they handle changes so that they only buff SMN alone, and this pretty much limits the possible choices to things such as pet potency/attack speed or Enkindle/Fester changes.

[Akiza]

It's a lot more complicated than that, because most suggested buffs to SMN (Aetherflow, MP Costs, Potency increase, cross-class Thunder, Energy Drain buff etc.) would all affect SCH too.

SCH's DPS is already very potent within endgame, all the while handling their healing duties and being able to take care of additional mechanics such as T12 Bluefire.
Buffing any of the above-mentioned things would be tipping the scales of healer balance further and further in SCH's favour.
This isn't an issue now since healer choice isn't as competitive as DPS (2 healer roles, 2 healer raid slots), but consider when Astrologian is released, it'll be more competing for WHMs spot... not SCH's. They have to be really careful with how they handle changes so that they only buff SMN alone, and this pretty much limits the possible choices to things such as pet potency/attack speed or Enkindle/Fester changes.

That is true the only thing SE can change without buffing the Summoner is pet potency/attack speed or Enkindle/Fester. But none of these options are desirable because Summoner's will out class every other dps.

[Havenchild]

It's a lot more complicated than that, because most suggested buffs to SMN (Aetherflow, MP Costs, Potency increase, cross-class Thunder, Energy Drain buff etc.) would all affect SCH too. SCH's DPS is already very potent within endgame, all the while handling their healing duties and being able to take care of additional mechanics such as T12 Bluefire.
Buffing any of the above-mentioned things would be tipping the scales of healer balance further and further in SCH's favour.
This isn't an issue now since healer choice isn't as competitive as DPS (2 healer roles, 2 healer raid slots), but consider when Astrologian is released, it'll be more competing for WHMs spot... not SCH's.

They have to be really careful with how they handle changes so that they only buff SMN alone, and this pretty much limits the possible choices to things such as pet potency/attack speed or Enkindle/Fester changes.

I 100% agree that they should completely avoid any changes that would also affect SCH.

Simply changing Fester to have a MP regeneration effect, or having Enkindle fully restore your MP each use, granted with the same 5m GCD (Preferably 4m) would align very well with a SMNs use of an optimal rotation since they usually bottom out on mana in the 3.5m-> 5m range.

I also don't support direct potency increases because I understand it becomes harder to forseeably balance those in the long run vs BLM. Most people fail to understand that a direct buff in single target via potency increase essentially buffs SMN AoE DPS via Bane and can very quickly overtune the DPS spread vs BLM, and like you said tied to SCH via Bio, Bio2 and Miasma 2. Buffs to Fester and Enkindle Potency alone, wouldn't fix any core issue on the class. At current, there is a clever Balance on DPS versus a BLM for SMN with BLM easing out easily due to the potency adjustments from SCOB. SMNS CAN catch up with easily QoL changes that allow us to utilize an optimal DPS rotation the entire fight or at least majority of it.

I do however favor a DPS buff via MP regeneration tools (Not Energy Drain -> which is tied to SCH) / Pet Balance (Food Correction / Moving Contagion off Garuda and unto Summoner JOB skills) / ACC Balance / Spellspeed Balance (Being a useful stat / via DoT tick occurence) / Better Gear optimization

[Dyvid]

It's a lot more complicated than that, because most suggested buffs to SMN (Aetherflow, MP Costs, Potency increase, cross-class Thunder, Energy Drain buff etc.) would all affect SCH too.

SCH's DPS is already very potent within endgame, all the while handling their healing duties and being able to take care of additional mechanics such as T12 Bluefire.
Buffing any of the above-mentioned things would be tipping the scales of healer balance further and further in SCH's favour.
This isn't an issue now since healer choice isn't as competitive as DPS (2 healer roles, 2 healer raid slots), but consider when Astrologian is released, it'll be more competing for WHMs spot... not SCH's.

They have to be really careful with how they handle changes so that they only buff SMN alone, and this pretty much limits the possible choices to things such as pet potency/attack speed or Enkindle/Fester changes.

This is true to a point. They could add / change SMN traits and abilities without messing with SCH. If the issue is mana then don't really need a potency change on abilities. For example addiing to Spur : pet damage restores player mp. Another would be removing enkindle, add a fifth pet action for inferno, aerial blash, earthen fury, then make the fifth SMN ability something like Aether Siphon that drains pet hp to restore mp.