Thread: 2.5 - Before the Fall

Originally Posted by Balipu

Moogle Mog and Shiva muddied the defintion of Primals quite a bit.

How so? Primals are still just manifest belief through large quantities of Aether/Crystals.

Moogle Mog was effectively just an explanation on the origin of Primals (further explained in Final Coil with a bit of Bahamuts backstory), they worshiped a legend enough and managed to manifest it, turning Moogle Mog from a simple legend into an actual Primal. The Scions were confused because they're slow. Shiva was basically the same, only difference being everyone shat themselves because Iceheart was a person rather than a beast tribe... Apparently all the Scions forgot that time their Grandpa explained to them how they could summon the Twelve and how that actually did happen...

The only thing left to figure out is how we go about summoning them ourselves, which is no doubt what 2.5s main quests are going to revolve around given the Keeper of the Lakes involvement (Iceheart did tell us to go there to learn the truth). Once we can summon Primals they're not much of a threat anymore. In fact they become the weapon we use to defeat the Ascians, though again, the Scions are slow... While they were sitting there wondering how they could get a blade of concentrated Aether to kill Ascians with, I was shouting at my screen trying to tell them that Primals are concentrated Aether... "Come on you idiots! You even watched Leviathan end an immortal only to comment that it wouldn't work on Ascians because they can escape with their Dark Crystals... That's why you brought in this Auracite stuff to trap them!", seriously, it's like one step forward, two steps back with them... "We can probably kill Ascians if we can trap them!", "Now that we can trap Ascians... How do we kill them?" Sigh...

Originally Posted by Nalien

seriously, it's like one step forward, two steps back with them... "We can probably kill Ascians if we can trap them!", "Now that we can trap Ascians... How do we kill them?" Sigh...

In the same stroke they figured they could kill them after trapping them with a burst of aether, but how much and how to gather the energy was the issue. The method of summoning a primal isn't beyond them, the formula is simple. They watched the moogles pull one out of thin air and they see it coming from the beast tribes.

The only other Primal that might serve to help the cause is Ramuh because out of all the Primals, Ramuh is the only one that appears to have sanity in a sense, he isn't as corrupt as the other Primals and I imagine he would be willing to lend his power to help take out the ascian.

But Ramuh is dead, the only ones who summon him are the Sylphs, and anyone who's walked into the sylphlands know how annoying they are. Every primal seems to carry the same threat, it scares the shit out of everyone who didn't summon it, and there's always the possibility it's a temper-crazy nazi god. The problem with the civilized races using primals is that it's basically like handling nuclear weapons. The possibility for it to become a political problem is just too massive.

Maybe the Allagans had it right with the concept of Ultima weapon, just jack the power of the primals you dont like and install a dualshock 3, problem solved

Originally Posted by Airget

The only other Primal that might serve to help the cause is Ramuh because out of all the Primals, Ramuh is the only one that appears to have sanity in a sense, he isn't as corrupt as the other Primals and I imagine he would be willing to lend his power to help take out the ascian.

Well I'd go so far and say Shiva(Lady Iceheart) is just as sane and civil as Ramuh, she has complete control over the power of St. Shiva, and still is able to freely think for herself when she is "Shiva". She even wants us on "her side" to understand where she is coming from, but will battle us if it is necessary to carry out her plans to stop the Ishgardian/Dravanian war. She even asks us to seek the Keeper of the Lake in order to "Seek the truth w/ unclouded eyes".

Originally Posted by Edellis

But Ramuh is dead, the only ones who summon him are the Sylphs, and anyone who's walked into the sylphlands know how annoying they are. Every primal seems to carry the same threat, it scares the shit out of everyone who didn't summon it, and there's always the possibility it's a temper-crazy nazi god. The problem with the civilized races using primals is that it's basically like handling nuclear weapons. The possibility for it to become a political problem is just too massive.

Maybe the Allagans had it right with the concept of Ultima weapon, just jack the power of the primals you dont like and install a dualshock 3, problem solved

Ramuh isn't actually "dead". None of the Primals are forever gone. Any of the beast tribes, with the proper devoutness and crystals, can summon their "god" any time they wish. So the Sylphs could technically summon Ramuh at any time, or if we saw fit, we probably could learn more of how Lady Iceheart was able to summon Shiva. If push came to shove, and knowing Minfilia persuaded the rest of the scions w/ our help as the WoL, then there probably could be a desperate enough time, especially if it involved killing all the ascians for good, that we as the good guys summon primal aid.

Personally, especially coming from Y'shtola, I don't see us attempting an "Ultima weapon" tactic w/ using Primal power, if you pay attention to the 2.2 ending storyline w/ Leviathan and Limsa, you'll see Y'shtola doesn't quite see how it's always the beastmens fault in the summoning situation, and wonders if it's really their fault, or ours (well Limsa's). Also the fact that Ultima (and Omega) reek of Allagans (which we know now, were a corrupted and greedy civilization), we would not instill into something that involved their technology w/o some kind of modification from Cid, making it into more his/Eorzean style.

Originally Posted by Yamimarik

Ramuh isn't actually "dead". None of the Primals are forever gone. Any of the beast tribes, with the proper devoutness and crystals, can summon their "god" any time they wish. So the Sylphs could technically summon Ramuh at any time, or if we saw fit, we probably could learn more of how Lady Iceheart was able to summon Shiva. If push came to shove, and knowing Minfilia persuaded the rest of the scions w/ our help as the WoL, then there probably could be a desperate enough time, especially if it involved killing all the ascians for good, that we as the good guys summon primal aid.

Personally, especially coming from Y'shtola, I don't see us attempting an "Ultima weapon" tactic w/ using Primal power, if you pay attention to the 2.2 ending storyline w/ Leviathan and Limsa, you'll see Y'shtola doesn't quite see how it's always the beastmens fault in the summoning situation, and wonders if it's really their fault, or ours (well Limsa's). Also the fact that Ultima (and Omega) reek of Allagans (which we know now, were a corrupted and greedy civilization), we would not instill into something that involved their technology w/o some kind of modification from Cid, making it into more his/Eorzean style.

i think the game has done a decent job making it very clear that the beast tribes aren't entirely unjust in summoning their primals, especially in the kobolds case when it was essentially done in self defense, and in Ramuh's case when the Sylphs only asked for people to stay out of their land, yet still they end up with issues. Shiva isn't really a good example because despite her endgame being "the end of war", war is exactly what she was planning to enact, really making her no different from the other hostile primals.

Ultimately i don't see the Scions adopting either the primals or allag weapons that use the primals as a solution, unless they're backed into a corner with no other option. And even then, it couldn't possibly be a "Scion" or "Crystal Braves" decision -- it would have to be likely carried out by all 3 grand companies as one. Even now in defeating the Ascians they're using research into crystals.

I think if SE ends up following through with the whole "capture primals and use them in battle" idea, it will be in a storyline involving some external threat like Garlemald, where everyone in Eorzea would benefit from it happening. With the player being a godslayer, I just can't see any other threat large enough that would cause it to happen, and the Primals are the one thing unique to Eorzea. Because im pretty sure if Garlemald reeeellllyy wanted Eorzea, they'd crush the shit out of them.

Originally Posted by Balipu

By the by, three Primals have been announced, not two.

True, I forgot about Alexander ><