An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[AriNahoki]

Its amazing that people are actually WANTING sp loss because this game 'needs' a consequence? If I to recall how many hrs spent on senseless buffer grinding because of preparation or aftermath of AV I'd rather shoot myself rofl. Maybe I don't have a high masochistic personality as some of you other people >.< but wanting SP loss seems retarded on so many levels.
*main reason I say this is from the already overwhelming posts / cries / threads / opinions that all this game is atm is a grind fest.. so seeing some advocating the creation of yet another reason to grind confuses me *

I'm not saying we shouldn't have consequences(just not sp loss) but I'm not all gun-ho for it either.

I agree. Right now I'm not a huge fan of putting too much consequences for stuff in the game, or nerfing things for that matter. Right now, FFXIV is trying to get to a point where it is marketable and sellable for the PS3 release, they need to shy away as much as possible from alienating fans.

[Raagnar]

im more for losing massive chunks of armor % more then paying to remove penalty or sp loss. I dont know about you guys but having to pay to remove death doesnt make me nervous about dying it makes me annoyed id have to go to someone specifially. If thats the case why not let alchemists create wound kits to get rid of weakness, youre still paying for death but you dont actually have to go somewhere to remove it.

[Zantetsuken]

I would support a death limit on leves. If total player deaths in the leve excede 3, the guildleve is considered a failure.

This would go a long way to making leves more challenging and eliminating zerg rushing.

Another way to tacking the death issue is to make mobs that become more powerful with every kill they make.

[Sorel]

BTW ... Rewards are only one type of positive reinforcement (incorrect, see below). When your parents give you chores as punishment, that's positive reinforcement (incorrect, that's positive punishment). When a hot stove burns you when you touch it, that's positive reinforcement (incorrect, that's also positive punishement). Anything that gives you something as a consequence of your actions, be it money, chores, or pain ... is positive reinforcement (incorrect, it's positive, but not reiforcement). It's one of the reasons why pain is such an effective teacher.

[trinta]

No dear, those are examples of "reinforcement". Not "positive reinforcement".

[Neptune]

BTW ... Rewards are only one type of positive reinforcement. When your parents give you chores as punishment, that's positive reinforcement. When a hot stove burns you when you touch it, that's positive reinforcement. Anything that gives you something as a consequence of your actions, be it money, chores, or pain ... is positive reinforcement. It's one of the reasons why pain is such an effective teacher.

You have a strange way of assessing it. You're right that getting chores based on something you did is getting something, however you didn't take into account the taking away of freedom that is part of doing the chores. That's why it's not really positive reinforcement and is really punishment.

[Sorel]

No dear, those are examples of "reinforcement". Not "positive reinforcement".

Actually turns out we're both kind of right ... and kind of wrong.

Forms of operant conditioning:

Positive reinforcement: the adding of an appetitive stimulus to increase a certain behavior or response.
Example: Father gives candy to his daughter when she picks up her toys.
Punishment (positive punishment): the adding of an aversive stimulus to decrease a certain behavior or response.
Example: Mother yells at a child when running into the street.
Negative reinforcement: the taking of an aversive stimulus to increase certain behavior or response.
Example: Rolling up the window to block the wind.
Negative punishment (omission training): the taking away of an appetitive stimulus to decrease a certain behavior.
Example: Taking away a night light when child does not go to bed.

Follow the link bellow for the full explanation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinfor..._reinforcement

[trinta]

Actually turns out we're both kind of right ... and kind of wrong.

Positive reinforcement: the adding of an appetitive stimulus to increase a certain behavior or response.
Example: Father gives candy to his daughter when she picks up her toys.

I'm not actually going to argue this with you, but I'm still trying to figure out how you think this definition you just posted says you're right?

[Sorel]

I'm not actually going to argue this with you, but I'm still trying to figure out how you think this definition you just posted says you're right?

I do not want to argue about arguing. If it will move things along, then I will happily state that my previous statement was wrong. I stand corrected. I will edit my previous posts to reflect my mistake.

The point that I was attempting to (but failing to) make is that we have more options than just taking away SP/XP/Anima (Negative Punishment). I think we should explore some of the other options for behavior modification in regards to death in FFXIV.

[Rowyne]

I completely agree with you. I really really do not enjoy losing exp due to inept players or other things that are out of my control. I don't mind being frustrated when playing a game. Like if I'm fighting a tough monster, crafting things higher than my level, exploring places that I have no business being in, and other things like that. Not when one or more party members don't know or care about how they are playing. I don't need FFXI-esque death penalty to have a great fear of dying. I hate dying, I like the death penalty just how it is, to be honest. I don't need to lose xp/sp to make me not want to die.

I don't want to go back to the days when most people were to scared to do much of anything. I really get tired of seeing the tank being the first one to run away when a fight goes wrong. Tired of people not wanting to take risks and fight that really tough monster. People didn't want to take risks on FFXI because of the death penalty. If I wanted all of that, I would be playing FFXI right now. I played it for a few years, it is time to move on. Games evolve, just like everything else in life, it is natural. Loosing the experience that you have gained from previous fights isn't very realistic. You don't lose your experience in real life, why should we have to do it in a game?

^ I pretty much agree with everything in this post. Thumbs up!