An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Mr_Gyactus]

uhm, I have tried to read all but It's really too long and confused.

Anyway, my idea is gimme cookies and trash the whip.

Instead of
"if you die you have a negative status"
--->
"if you do not die, you have a positive status"

for example:

Leve reset: we have a 10-20-30% (to define) bonus for exp and items.
everytime we die, we lose a certain amount of that bonus.
If we don't die for .. 1 hour? 30 minutes? 2 hours? we regain a part of the bonus.

So If we are good and don't die, we level fast, and acquire more loot
If we die as a leaf in autumn, we "lose" this bonus, but we can continue to play.

Be forced to do nothing for 2-3-10 minutes doesn't teach anything, it's just boring.

I died, ok, I go afk for a while, drink something.
Fun huh?

[Kilta_Firelotus]

Sorry for the thread derailment, I try avoided it but Apperently I can't make a seperete discussion about this question

why is death penalties such a hot topic on the forums?
The reason I'm lost is no one likes penalties in death, and do every means to avoid death. Which includes power leveling like in ffxi. All a death penalty did was waste time. I was forced to be a rdm healer alot for parties who ended up having a PL. (even befor we started)
Not trying to be mean about it. Just a bit confused and surpised there 3 topics stating several Ideas on death penalties, some harsher then others.

Sorry if this is considered trolling, I did try making my own discussion on the matter.

[Shaone]

It's not like there's really even a noticable death penalty in XI any more. I mean 150k/hour exp rates, everything in aby giving exp, soon even dynamis giving exp, multiple stackable abyssites reducing exp loss on death to near zero, auto-rr3 atma...

The death penalty in XI is dead. And good riddance.

[Anonymoose]

While at this moment, these penalties seem weak due to the easiness of gil to come by, I think that as the game finds its playerbase and the value of gil rises, this will be perfectly balanced.

I'm of the personal opinion that many penalties for death, especially that of FFXI, exist mainly as a time sink - and the purposes of which are anachronistic (at best) to today's standards. Please don't let the loud minority here endanger what I feel are fair and modern penalties with what are IMO short-sighted criticisms. Innovation, of course, does not require one to reinvent the wheel, but change isn't always a bad thing.

Keep up that drive, Team Yoshida-san. The dedication shown since you guys joined the Devs have more than given me faith in the future of this MMO.

[Arcell]

I am neither for or against his idea but people have addressed this in the last pages.

There's a worse penalty than losing experience points when doing missions or events: it's called failing the event. It's what happens when you lose too many times and your group either gets tired or runs out of time, or when the event is actually timed and you run out of time to keep on trying.

The penalty is not getting that cutscene, not getting deeper into the dungeon, nor getting items. Whatever your motivation was for doing the event in the first place is not accomplished.

Nobody cares about EXP loss during events/missions, especially since there are usually people who have Raise spells. In FFXI there were events where you had to sacrifice people in order to win (kite adds or suicide pulls) and it was done without hesitation. What's your answer to that? Perhaps they cared about something else beyond avoiding the death penalty? Perhaps losing the event was indeed worse than losing exp?

Do you honestly think that the reason people didn't try some events in FFXI was because they would lose some exp upon death? No, it was usually because most hard fights required some pre-reqs that couldn't be reobtained overnight, or because you could only do them a few times per week, or because the events were annoying enough to end up in failure without the right people (which translates into a waste of time, which is also a penalty).

A harsh death penalty is also not enough to make death matter during an encounter. Even with a death penalty, people were raised mid-battle in XI. Even with a death penalty, you saw zombie attacks. Don't you realize exp loss failed as a death deterrent in endgame events in FFXI? In XIV, do you really think linkshells wouldn't make people Return midfight if they died and their contribution for rejoining the fight could net them the win? (even with an exp penalty).

What you need to do is to make death matter by limiting how much you can recover during an encounter. What Yoshida suggested works for this, with some slight adjustments to Raise and encounter mechanics.

^ This. 1000 times this.

[God]

Awesome news. I DO NOT want an SP/EXP loss on death NO WAY.

[solracht]

Sorry for the thread derailment, I try avoided it but Apperently I can't make a seperete discussion about this question

why is death penalties such a hot topic on the forums?
The reason I'm lost is no one likes penalties in death, and do every means to avoid death. Which includes power leveling like in ffxi. All a death penalty did was waste time. I was forced to be a rdm healer alot for parties who ended up having a PL. (even befor we started)
Not trying to be mean about it. Just a bit confused and surpised there 3 topics stating several Ideas on death penalties, some harsher then others.

Sorry if this is considered trolling, I did try making my own discussion on the matter.

I think it's because a developer posted on the matter. If you've ever visited forums for any other MMORPG, you'll notice that having a developer post somewhere is the fastest way to increase the life of a thread or topic tenfold.

From then on, it's a snowball effect. The topic gets popular, and when something is popular, others follow.

If you're asking about before Yoshida posted, then I honestly don't know.

[Alise]

uhm,

So If we are good and don't die, we level fast, and acquire more loot
If we die as a leaf in autumn, we "lose" this bonus, but we can continue to play.

Be forced to do nothing for 2-3-10 minutes doesn't teach anything, it's just boring.

I died, ok, I go afk for a while, drink something.
Fun huh?

wow... very good thinking, your solution beat mine. I think this is good idea, why force player to afk?

[KaiKatzchen]

I like Yoshi-P's idea; it’s like a twist on FFXI's death penalty.

In FFXI if the player died and had to return they took a max EXP loss on their character depending on level. If the player was raised they suffered from weakness but didn't take as heavy of an EXP loss depending on the raise used.

So Yoshi-P's Idea:

Definite occurrence of a ”Temporary status down” effect upon recovery of death (Wears off after a set time OR by paying gil to an NPC)
Occurrence of an ”equipment degradation” effect only when using return after death (Recovered by repair)

Could be looked at like FFXI where the player doesn't have a raise at all and suffered EXP loss depending on their level.

4-24 = roughly 10%
25-67 = roughly 8%
68+ = roughly 2400 exp

And the following:

Introduction of raise tier system (Raise I/Raise II/Raise III *Temporary names)
Raise I (After being raised, status down effect, no equipment damage)
Raise II (After being raised, weaker status down effect or a shortened status down time, no equipment damage)
Raise III (Perfect raise, no status down effect *Recast time and/or high MP cost)

Reminds me of FFXI where:

Raise 1: 50% EXP back
Raise 2: 75% EXP back
Raise 3: 90% EXP back

With Yoshi-P's idea the higher the raise the less damage and/or status effects the player receives. And actually I think with Raise 1 there should still be some damage done to the gear, where he has no gear damage. I wouldn't mind it being:

Raise 1: Status Effect Down, 'X' amount of Gear Damage
Raise 2: Weaker Status Effect Down, weaker 'X' amount of Gear Damage
Raise 3: No Status Effect Down, No Gear Damage

It really looks like a twist on the FFXI penalty but done slightly different so it isn't an exact copy, so I have no problem with his idea at all. It's nice to have some kind of penalty with death because it stops people from abusing the system. Who cares if it keeps a player down for a few moments, and they might go afk until 'weakness' is off. The same happened in FFXI and we just worked through it, so I’ll work though this penalty as well.

If any mods are reading this, I like Yoshi-P’s idea but it seems he’s still thinking about some parts of it. I’d love to see it again once he gets it more hammered out and knows exactly what he will be doing.

[trinta]

Hmm... let's see. They can lose their jobs, they can get salary reductions... I'd say loss of one's livelihood is quite a punishment.

My bad. I missed the trend where players are fined by their team for each game that they lose. </sarcasm>

In other words, I disagree with your premise. Of course a professional athlete who consistently fails to deliver will be sent back to the minors. The parallel that exists in most MMOs is that the player who consistently dies will likely get discouraged and play something else instead.

Professional athletes aren't fined on a per-loss basis, so using that as your example to prove that we should be is a pretty flimsy argument.