[dev1021]SP in non-leve parties

[Rentahamster]

I think that this is way too subjective and we need to specify this even further. What is considered "good SP", as it is quite an abstract term? Is our "good SP" the same as the developers' "good SP"? Does this mean "it is too hard to build a set-up that is be able to gain the maximum possible SP per hour"? Or does it mean "it is too hard to build a set-up that is able to gain an average number of SP per hour" (the median from the lowest and the highest possible SP gain)?



This also depends quite a bit on what you consider "the best way". Do you mean "the maximum possible SP in the lowest amount of time possible"?

Subjective? The parts of my post you are quoting were a more detailed description of what I was talking about in a previous post - that you asked me to expand upon.

Leve SP:
You can get anywhere from 50-100K per leve reset, but that's only for about 1-4 hours every 36 hours, assuming you have a decent group to party with.

Grind SP:
You can get anywhere from 10-20k SP per hour, and you can keep on grinding as long as you want, whenever you want, assuming you have a decent group to party with.

Is our "good SP" the same as the developers' "good SP"?

I was going on this assumption, but I don't think I've mentioned it in this thread, so I'll say it again: The devs tuned the stupid fatigue system so that it'll kick in if we get about 80k SP within an 8 hour time span. Therefore, the dev's idea of "good SP" is somewhere around 10K/hour.

Does this mean "it is too hard to build a set-up that is be able to gain the maximum possible SP per hour"? Or does it mean "it is too hard to build a set-up that is able to gain an average number of SP per hour" (the median from the lowest and the highest possible SP gain)?

I believe I answered this already. There's only 2 choices: leves and normal mob grinding, and they both have flaws that include, but are not limited to, the difficulty involved in "building a set-up" (regardless of whether or not you're looking to maximize your SP gain, or settle for the average).

This also depends quite a bit on what you consider "the best way". Do you mean "the maximum possible SP in the lowest amount of time possible"?

Yes. Throughout this thread I have nearly always framed my points in the context of "SP/hr", so you can assume I am talking about maximizing SP/hr.

Because if we want to get the best amount of SP on average and we have enough time to go through the leves more than once, leve-sharing is more efficient (you gain +100% more SP per leve when you share instead of +50% by linking).

I think you mean "if we want to get the best amount of total SP, regardless of time spent", right?

Also, that's not an "efficient" way of doing it. You may end up with more SP when you're done, but you also take 2,3,4 (or however many times you are doing the same leve again) times longer. Not that many people can sustain a leve group for 3+ hours.

It's also not "efficient" because it's a waste of Guardian's Favor. You get more utility from enabling guardians' aspect on one leve with 3 links, than using GA 4 times on 4 seperate, shared links. When you factor in GA usage, leve sharing is even more inferior to leve linking.

And if the positives aren't enough to make up for the negatives players will be less likely to make use of the system in place, thus making it even harder to build a pick-up group.

Agreed. But -

(in this case, if the SP/hour by leve-sharing/linking is not worth the effort as you can solo or duo monsters instead for roughly the same SP)

Not really. Leve-linking is always better SP/hr than solo grinding.

If the playerbase is divided between grouping for leves and grouping for "camping"/monster grinding or whatever you want to call it, there are roughly half the amount of people to party with at any given time for whatever activity you wish to do.

That's not what I was talking about. Players are always going to prioritize leves first since they are an easier way to get SP, and you can potentially get more SP/hr via leves than via grinding normal mobs.

When I said the player base is "split", I mean that it is split amongst those who have leves to share, and those who do not have leves to share. Like I mentioned, a player shouting to create a pick up leve party in Uldah isn't going to invite you if you don't have some leves of your own to link.

As far as the party bonus goes, you do not suffer from any Sp penalty for having two people in your group. Therefore, it does not make sense to not invite a duo partner even if he has no leves, as you can A) finish the leve twice as fast for no penalty, and B) you may even be able to raise the difficulty of the leve.

Correct. But we're discussing ways to get the best SP, and duoing isn't one of them. (but it's still decent if you have the right setup).

And the party bonus is very forgiving for up to 8 people, and you can raise the difficulty to make up for the losses (as well as finishing the leve faster of course), so why do people consider these players 'leechers'?

You can only raise the difficulty so much before you hit the dlvl 10 cap and don't get any more SP from raising the stars. In the worst case scenario, if you invite only leechers to your party, you can do Dunesfolk and get about 100-200SP per dog. If at least 3 of those other 7 party members had a leve to link, you'd be seeing SP gains of 500-800 instead. If you only invited 3 people who have leve links, then you end up getting 1000+SP per dog.

What is it that makes these people focus on creating the party?

Partying is how you get the best SP, like it should be in an MMO.

Does the game offer no alternative for such thing (soloing, etc.)?

It does. You can solo for okay SP (5K/hr-ish, or more, if you're rank 30 or lower), which is fine.

I don't think the monsters in this game are equal, and the base SP reflects this. SP per monster is not really as important as average SP gain per hour for example.

Yeah, I know. I think I already established this.

But it is clear that right now, the developers need to enforce what they want us to do, for both the progression and the class system. Absolute control is not the answer, but neither is absolute freedom. We can find various MMO's that tend to focus on one more than the other, and the only solution for the development team is to find their own balance. I'm all for more freedom than control, but right now they have gone too far and we can see the consequences here.

Actually, I would say that the problem right now isn't that we have too many choices and too much freedom.

While we technically have a variety of choices in how to get good SP, the majority of them suck. For all intents and purposes, we are stuck with a few narrow ways of getting SP as those are the only ways that are any good. The problem is that the game is still in its early years, and not many people know what the best ways are.

That doesn't mean I let the devs off the hook, however. I agree that they do need to find some sort of plan to make the whole process more intuitive and obvious so that we don't have to spend weeks of playing "guess and check" in order to figure out what we're supposed to be doing.

for the developers to be able to build a fun, balanced progression system, they need to be able to control how we play the game effectively instead of trying to guess how the players interpret the systems in place.

In other words, I would not use too much "control", but rather make the system more user friendly so that the players naturally play the game in the "best" way. I think it can be done with a minimal amount of forcing on the devs' part.