[dev1021]SP in non-leve parties

[MonsieurVerde]

The third step is to tone down the group SP outside leves.

.

Err...why would they tone down exp for normal parties outside leves? >_> It's already at a good point.

[Rentahamster]

The third step is to tone down the group SP outside leves.

Because they need to control what we do in order to offer the most balanced and fun gameplay experience.

Disagree.

They don't need to control us by taking away more choices. I, as well as a lot of other people, find party SP grinding to be "fun gameplay experiences".

[Betelgeuzah]

Err...why would they tone down exp for normal parties outside leves? >_> It's already at a good point.

Because they need to control what we do in order to offer the most balanced and fun gameplay experience.

[Betelgeuzah]

I was going on this assumption, but I don't think I've mentioned it in this thread, so I'll say it again: The devs tuned the stupid fatigue system so that it'll kick in if we get about 80k SP within an 8 hour time span. Therefore, the dev's idea of "good SP" is somewhere around 10K/hour.

I don't think it is that hard to achieve 10k per hour of SP gain even with the current systems?

Secondly, even though the fatigue system (which is not stupid) kicks in after 80k continuous SP, the reality is much different. You can pretty much gain double that much SP in a week's time even with a slight fatigue.

You did not also answer my question. "There are not enough ways to get good SP", what does this mean? You listed leves and grouping, what am I supposed to look at? Are you simply not agreeing with the developers idea of 'good' SP?

Yes. Throughout this thread I have nearly always framed my points in the context of "SP/hr", so you can assume I am talking about maximizing SP/hr.

That's not the point, because you don't tell me whether you mean "maximum SP in an hours worth of exping" or "maximum SP in 5 hours of exping", for example. If you want to maximize your SP gain for 5 consecutive hours a different method is used than if you want to maximize your SP gain for just one hour.

Also, that's not an "efficient" way of doing it. You may end up with more SP when you're done, but you also take 2,3,4 (or however many times you are doing the same leve again) times longer. Not that many people can sustain a leve group for 3+ hours.

If is efficient if you want to gain more SP and do not have to care about the time spent. It is not efficient if time is a concern. There are two methods that both achieve the best results for whatever your time resources are. If you want the most SP over-all, you should leve-share. If you want the most SP in the smallest possible timeframe, you should leve-link instead. Both ways have their pros and cons, and are efficient.

Not really. Leve-linking is always better SP/hr than solo grinding.

Yes- but the point here is, is it good enough?

Say, theoretically if you could solo a rank in an hour but by doing leve-linking you could get a rank in 50 minutes (when everything involved has been taken into account)- sure, it's faster but is it fast enough to make the players feel it is worthwhile to build a party and go out there for the sake of 10 minutes of time saved?

This is important, because it's not enough that it's simply better SP/hr than the alternative- it has to be so good that the player wants to gain that advantage, and the alternative needs to be so slow that the player cares about getting that advantage too. If they think "eh, it's just an hour, not too bad" they are much less likely to go out there and group. But if they think "damn, another three hours to get a rank... by grouping I could be done in an hour!" the situation is completely different.

That's not what I was talking about. Players are always going to prioritize leves first since they are an easier way to get SP, and you can potentially get more SP/hr via leves than via grinding normal mobs.

I know that's not directly what you were talking about, but it is a factor that affects the problem you mentioned nonetheless. It's not just about "having leves" and "not having any leves", even if that is a factor too.

You can only raise the difficulty so much before you hit the dlvl 10 cap and don't get any more SP from raising the stars.

Up to rank 40 you can simply change to a higher rank camp?

In the worst case scenario, if you invite only leechers to your party, you can do Dunesfolk and get about 100-200SP per dog. If at least 3 of those other 7 party members had a leve to link, you'd be seeing SP gains of 500-800 instead. If you only invited 3 people who have leve links, then you end up getting 1000+SP per dog.

I know that having people with leves is better than having people with no leves, but that doesn't explain why you wouldn't invite people without leves if people with leves aren't available. That's the question here. Why not invite them in that case?

Partying is how you get the best SP, like it should be in an MMO.

It does. You can solo for okay SP (5K/hr-ish, or more, if you're rank 30 or lower), which is fine.

Then why is the 30mins required to build a party a big waste of time, if you can get 5k/hr SP during it?

While we technically have a variety of choices in how to get good SP, the majority of them suck.

Because there is not enough developer control, because we have a variety of choices and the developers can not balance their game properly because of it.

The problem is that the game is still in its early years, and not many people know what the best ways are.

The problem is, honestly, that the developers don't dictate what the best ways are and make it obvious. We are left to figure out the "best ways", and honestly, they won't be any good. We'll end up fighting one monster type in few select areas in the whole world, because that's the "best way" and there is nothing the developers can do about it (unless they control us instead of us controlling them).

In other words, I would not use too much "control", but rather make the system more user friendly so that the players naturally play the game in the "best" way.

That's what control is all about. The developers dictate what we should be doing, and we'll end up doing it. Either directly or indirectly. In the end it's just a different approach to achieve the same end result.

They don't need to control us by taking away more choices. I, as well as a lot of other people, find party SP grinding to be "fun gameplay experiences".

That's exactly what they need to do, and of course you will disagree with it, simply because the opposite of control is freedom- and the players like their freedom. But the reality is that the developers can not build a good game without controlling us, more or less. This problem will not be solved until they start controlling what we do and how we do it. The more choices (freedom) there is, the less they can control us. You, as well as other people, simply need to deal with the fact that they may not choose your way as the way they will enforce. One system is going to end up being a remnant of the past.

[Rentahamster]

I don't think it is that hard to achieve 10k per hour of SP gain even with the current systems?

It's not hard. In my previous post that I quoted, I specifically stated that you can get anywhere from 10-20k/hr in a grinding party.

Secondly, even though the fatigue system (which is not stupid) kicks in after 80k continuous SP, the reality is much different. You can pretty much gain double that much SP in a week's time even with a slight fatigue.

Yes, I know that you can power through fatigue if you choose to. You asked me what the developers' idea of "good SP" is, and I answered it. Approximately 10k/hr for 8 hours. This is what the devs consider the point at which you've gained enough SP and should probably start using a different class. It's pretty clear that this is their intention, otherwise the math would be different.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/978...igue-Explained

You did not also answer my question. "There are not enough ways to get good SP", what does this mean? You listed leves and grouping, what am I supposed to look at? Are you simply not agreeing with the developers idea of 'good' SP?

I did answer your question. You can leve or you can grind, but there are fewer ways to do it to get at least 10k/hour, and more ways to screw it up (more so at later ranks. 1-30 is now a cakewalk after patch 1.15).

That's not the point, because you don't tell me whether you mean "maximum SP in an hours worth of exping" or "maximum SP in 5 hours of exping", for example. If you want to maximize your SP gain for 5 consecutive hours a different method is used than if you want to maximize your SP gain for just one hour.

This is why I'm framing SP gain as a derivative of time, so that how much time you spend total is irrelevant. Only the rate matters.

If you want to maximize SP gain for 5 hours, you use the exact same method for maximizing SP gain for 1 hour: get a bunch of people with leves and then link them all.

If is efficient if you want to gain more SP and do not have to care about the time spent. It is not efficient if time is a concern. There are two methods that both achieve the best results for whatever your time resources are. If you want the most SP over-all, you should leve-share. If you want the most SP in the smallest possible timeframe, you should leve-link instead. Both ways have their pros and cons, and are efficient.

Wasting time is not efficient. Time is always a concern. Whether you play for only 2 hours a day, or 20 hours a day, time is always a concern if you are serious about maximizing your SP gain.

If you want the most SP in the smallest possible timeframe, you should leve-link

Yes.

If you want the most SP over-all, you should leve-share.

No. If you want the most SP over-all, you leve-link. Then when you run out of leves, you find more people who do have leves they are willing to link with you. If you can't find more people with links, then you go grind some normal mobs. This strategy will gain more total SP than a party that just shares each link individually and wastes all of their guardians favor.

Yes- but the point here is, is it good enough?

In the games current state, yes, it's good enough. There is much more incentive to party than there is to solo. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see so many shouts for leve parties in Uldah.

Up to rank 40 you can simply change to a higher rank camp?

You misunderstand. I'm talking about the uselessness of increasing stars if it takes the mob's level over the dlvl 10 cap. Read my blog post that I linked earlier. It shows you how SP is calculated in this game.

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1555795

Then why is the 30mins required to build a party a big waste of time, if you can get 5k/hr SP during it?

The 30 minutes is a waste of time, but once you get a decent party started, it is not a waste of time.

That's what control is all about. The developers dictate what we should be doing, and we'll end up doing it. Either directly or indirectly. In the end it's just a different approach to achieve the same end result.

I think we're arguing for more or less similar means, it's just that you're calling it "control", and I'm calling it "freedom"


I think we may have a few misunderstandings here so I'm just going to repeat my main points about what I want from this game:

I want a variety of fun activities to do that will at least get me 10k/hour

I want those activities to involve other people and encourage player interaction, cooperation, camaraderie, and strategy

I want these activities to be explained adequately, or at least, be able to be understood in a straightforward manner.


But anyway, we're straying from what the OP is talking about:

Can you please find a way to encourage traditional partying more?

At the start of the game, we had relatively more "normal" parties for SPing, on efts, raptors ,etc. Not saying that there are none now, but with Battle Guildleves providing more SP, as well as behests being somewhat more appealing than before, there has been a lack of SP groups..

Please find the right balance between the 2 (Now I'm not saying to nerf SP from leves, just improve SP in regular groups) so that regular parties are encouraged more..

I agree with everything Iron said.

[Griss]

Main problems i see for sp grind parties is two fold. while the recruitment system while theoretical superior it is not practically superior to the old flag up and look method. both could exist and i think it would work well. Second, the re-spawn on worth while mobs is total garbage. I know a bunch of places where its possible to get 4-500 sp per mob while grouped. you just have to stand around like a bunch of idiots after you blow through them and that is not what i would qualify as good sp/h.

[graiman]

maybe untill SE brings in a party search option in-game
they should be part of the forum dedicated to hookin ppl up with partys
i.e
in game name
server
area
time avalible to party
just my 2 pennies worth

[Alise]

this thread is related to here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...better-rewards.

depend on SE choice, they can either balance the way of how both grinding method worth, or they can just make leves become 72 hours per reset instead of 36 hours, so players get free day that they don't have to do leves.

However, I think it is better for SE to just make leves reset slower, because they claim that they make leves for casual players, but casual players can't fully benefit it at all now. All casual players who doesn't have 5+ hours daily can never finish all leves. (and if he has over 5+ hours per day, then he is not casual player lol)

[Betelgeuzah]

It's not hard. In my previous post that I quoted, I specifically stated that you can get anywhere from 10-20k/hr in a grinding party.

So, we can quite easily get the SP the developers consider "good"- no problems there. You don't seem to agree with that, but I think the grind is just fine the way it is now.

You can leve or you can grind, but there are fewer ways to do it to get at least 10k/hour, and more ways to screw it up (more so at later ranks. 1-30 is now a cakewalk after patch 1.15).

But you just said it's not hard to achieve 10k per hour? I don't think so either. So you aren't really making much sense here.

If you want to maximize SP gain for 5 hours, you use the exact same method for maximizing SP gain for 1 hour: get a bunch of people with leves and then link them all.

I just told you that sharing leves is better for a 5 hour party than linking them; +100% SP instead of +50%. Leve-linking is detrimental for a 5 hour party because when you run out of leves, your SP gain drops. With leve-sharing, you don't run out of leves as fast, and can achieve more total SP than if you linked them. This is not rocket science and I don't understand how you have such a hard time understanding.

Wasting time is not efficient. Time is always a concern.

This is silly. No, time is not a concern for some people. You can't talk for everyone out there.

No. If you want the most SP over-all, you leve-link. Then when you run out of leves, you find more people who do have leves they are willing to link with you. If you can't find more people with links, then you go grind some normal mobs. This strategy will gain more total SP than a party that just shares each link individually and wastes all of their guardians favor.

This doesn't make any sense. You run out of leves but can still link "them" with others? If you can't find people to link with (=leech, which doesn't work according to you, so this plan is even dumber), you go get inferior SP while the people who share their leves are still getting more SP for a longer period of time, eventually passing the leve-link group by a mile.

I can see what the problem here is now. People don't grasp what is efficient and what isn't and resort to this kind of stupidity and then bitch when things don't go their way. Too bad, because the system works fine.

the difficulty involved in "building a set-up"

In the games current state, yes, it's good enough. There is much more incentive to party than there is to solo. If there wasn't, you wouldn't see so many shouts for leve parties in Uldah.

If you have "difficulty in building a set-up", then clearly it isn't good enough.

You misunderstand. I'm talking about the uselessness of increasing stars if it takes the mob's level over the dlvl 10 cap. Read my blog post that I linked earlier. It shows you how SP is calculated in this game.

Ah yes, I did. And how many people is needed to take a dlvl10 monster down effectively?

The 30 minutes is a waste of time, but once you get a decent party started, it is not a waste of time.

You can solo for 5k/hr during those 30 minutes. What's the waste in that?

I think we're arguing for more or less similar means, it's just that you're calling it "control", and I'm calling it "freedom"

Actually, you are arguing for freedom in solving the problem, while I am arguing for control to solve the problem. Both approaches can take us somewhere, but only with enough control can the developers make the progression easy to understand, expand on the parts that need expanding and create a more tighter community that isn't divided between three+ different progression methods, while S-E has to balance between them for ages to come.

You aren't all about freedom either, but there are no extremes here. Only emphasizing different sides.

[Rentahamster]

So, we can quite easily get the SP the developers consider "good"- no problems there. You don't seem to agree with that, but I think the grind is just fine the way it is now.

But you just said it's not hard to achieve 10k per hour? I don't think so either. So you aren't really making much sense here.

I don't agree that 10k-20k SP per hour is good? When did I say that? Stop responding to what you "think" I say, and respond to what I "actually" say, please. The only reason I don't "make sense" is because you are reading what I'm writing but somehow not understanding what I'm talking about.

We just need to make a larger variety of mobs more grindable, primarily by increasing respawn rates, mob populations, and increasing base SP to 150 for more mobs.

What I mean is that there are not enough ways to get good SP. There are not enough options available to the player if he wants to get at least 10k/hour, and a lot of the options that are available have various negative qualities.

If you know how to grind, you can get 10-20k/hour (easy part). But it requires a lot of knowledge about the game, which not a lot of people have (hard part).

I just told you that sharing leves is better for a 5 hour party than linking them; +100% SP instead of +50%. Leve-linking is detrimental for a 5 hour party because when you run out of leves, your SP gain drops. With leve-sharing, you don't run out of leves as fast, and can achieve more total SP than if you linked them. This is not rocket science and I don't understand how you have such a hard time understanding.

- and I just explained how leve-linking is better for a 5 hour party than leve-sharing. Did you read that, or just dismiss it outright because you assume you're always right?

Remember how I mentioned that I frame SP gain as a derivative of time? Remember why I did that?

When you leve-link, you get anywhere from 50-75k/hour
When you leve-share, you get anywhere from 20-30k/hour. (2.5x less)

If you leve link for 5 hours, you get 250-375k SP.
If you leve share for 5 hours, you get 100-150k SP.

With leve-sharing, you don't run out of leves as fast

I'm operating under the assumption that you always have leve links for the whole 5 hours. When you compare two different things, you have to keep external variables as constant as possible.

This is silly. No, time is not a concern for some people. You can't talk for everyone out there.

Time is always a concern, even if you don't perceive it to be. If we're talking about maximizing SP, then yes, I can speak for them because if they're ignoring time, then by definition, they are not trying to maximize SP.

If I have 20 hours a day to play I'm going to use all 20 of those hours using the SP gain method that has the best SP/hr RATE.

This doesn't make any sense. You run out of leves but can still link "them" with others? If you can't find people to link with (=leech, which doesn't work according to you, so this plan is even dumber), you go get inferior SP while the people who share their leves are still getting more SP for a longer period of time, eventually passing the leve-link group by a mile.

In my leve-link example, you do your best to get as many leves as you can. When you run out, you get more. Yes, that is leeching. I said this is the best way to get SP, not a way I agree with and like to do. This is also why I gave the secondary option of grinding mobs instead.

It seems I'm just going to have to show you through math why you're wrong, since you don't understand the concepts I'm explaining to you. I was hoping you could conceptualize the numbers without having to type them all out, but I guess not.

Scenario: Two different 8-players parties. Each player has one leve: Dunesfolk for Dinner. Both parties have 5 hours to play. Party A does the leve twice, with full links both times; Party B does the leve 8 times, sharing the leve each time and not linking. Once out of leves, each party resorts to normal mob grinding for 10kSP/hour.

Constant Variables:

- Each leve takes 10 minutes to complete.

- There are 14 dogs and 3 peistes on every leve.

- All mobs hit the dlvl 10 cap for maximum rank difference bonus.

- Both parties use as much Guardian's Favor as possible to get as much SP as they can.

SP = [base SP] x [dlvl modifier] x [party modifier] x [Guardian Aspect] x [link bonus]

SP gained on a Dunesfolk leve with 3 links:
1 dog = [125] x [3] x [0.65] x [1.5] x [2.5] = 915 SP per person.

1 peiste = [100] x [3] x [0.65] x [1.5] x [2.5] = 732 SP per person

14 dogs + 3 peistes = (915 x 14) + (732 x 3) = 15,006 SP

SP gained on a Dunesfolk leve with 0 links:
1 dog = [125] x [3] x [0.65] x [1.5] = 366 SP per person.

1 peiste = [100] x [3] x [0.65] x [1.5] = 293 SP per person

14 dogs + 3 peistes = (366 x 14) + (293 x 3) = 6003 SP

SP gained by Party A in 5 hours:
15,006 SP x 2 leves (0.33 hours) + 10,000SP/hour x 4.66 hours = 30,012 SP + 46,000 SP = 76,612 SP (20 guardians favor used)

SP gained by Party B in 5 hours:
6003 SP x 8 leves (2.66 hours) + 10,000SP/hr x 2.33 hours = 71,324 SP (80 guardians favor used - big fat waste)

Does it make sense to you now? I even used the lowest grinding SP/hr to make it more favorable for your leve-share scenario. In reality, my parties exceed 10k SP/hour grinding normal mobs. Not to mention that it's very difficult to keep all 8 leve-holders in a party for 2.66 hours.

I can see what the problem here is now. People don't grasp what is efficient and what isn't and resort to this kind of stupidity and then bitch when things don't go their way. Too bad, because the system works fine.

It doesn't reflect well upon you if you have to resort to insults in order to prove your point. I know what's efficient and what isn't through testing, not feelings.

If you have "difficulty in building a set-up", then clearly it isn't good enough.

I said it was "difficult" (especially for newbies). I didn't say it was "impossible". It was difficult to build a party in FF11 too, yet that was good enough for most people.

You can solo for 5k/hr during those 30 minutes. What's the waste in that?

If you solo for 2,500 SP, you're wasting time that you could have used making a party so that you can solo for much better SP gains as a party.