The Ninja Superthread

[silentwindfr]

all depend of which skill and where are the positional.
i explain myself, as monk you can design 2 type of combo, one for the flank, one for the back. you will move from side to back every 2-4 skill.
the trouble here with the ninja is if spinning edge and the finisher of the combo have a different positional, it will be a pain, since all our combo is coming from this skill!
- Spinning edge>shadowfangs
- Spinning edge>guts slash>dancing edge
- Spinning edge>guts slash>Aeolian edge
- Spinning edge>guts slash>skill of futon refresh.

why do the monk have a system fluid? because he don't have 2 starter of combo, like the dragoon!
- monk: bootshine (back) and dragon kick (flank)
- dragoon: True Thrust and impulse drive, note that dragoon had him starter changed and the rear positional from impulse drive was simply removed.

all combo of the ninja begin with Spinning edge and from the start it's a trouble! it show how the combo system of the ninja is limited! it can't be fluid, because instead to give us tool for make 2 combo, we do have 1 combo with a lot of branch... and now i don't think that add positional as recquirement for increase futon is a solution. since from the start positional is not adapted for the combo system of ninja! ninja combo system will force us to move every 1-2 skill.

without a deep rework of the ninja, add positional to previous skill is simply make jobs more broken and complicate than really fun. we already have one of the only system that can make us fail our skill (mudra) and the only positional that are totally unforgiving (trick attack, if you are not in the back, the debuff is not there) on top of that we do have one of the most limited combo system for the melee.
it do work now, because we don't have positional, we can manage to get our cycle work somehow... but the jobs is not fluid or smooth in the control. why that? because they try to make 2 system work together... when one is broken (mudra) and even them admit that they don't know how fix it. and the other is extremely limited, offering no real freedom for add more skill in the futur.

what is bothering, it's, the fact that all this point was already mentioned many time and not only by me. indeed i love ninja, i still play it. but let's be honest, the number of ninja played is dropping fast. because, people notice all the error of design and with the recent announcement, how you want to motivate people to play the jobs that need to be worked on...when Yoshida himself say... that we don't need to have stuff be added or changed exept add more limitation.

ps: positional mustn't be added to ninja, and if they do it, i think they will take it out fast or the jobs will be abandoned and only played by a small number of fan.

[Zamii]

ninja is only having positionals added to some skills, not all of them, i'de be willing to bet its only on the combo finishers, ie Aeolean edge and Dancing edge

[Allyrion]

ninja is only having positionals added to some skills, not all of them, i'de be willing to bet its only on the combo finishers, ie Aeolean edge and Dancing edge

I think this would be the smoothest way to indroduce it into our rotation.
Just the finishers.
Maybe Shadowfang too or if Shadowfang gets a finisher.

Arkenne has some interesting ideas about positionals.
But I don't know if the game is really ready for them!
Honestly, those kind of mechanics seem like a better fit on a monk.

[Arkenne]

better fit on MNK

Not gonna say they wouldn't work on either MNK or DRG but I really like the tricky ways of the ROG and NIN, so, I would rather see those on a NIN.

A reason as of why Positionals sound so interesting for me is ironically because the current rotation, as Silent has already reminded us way too many times, is quite the tight one.

So I think Positionals could be used in order to evolve NIN's rotation and add even more Weaponskills aside from the current combos of AE, DE, SF and Mu. Hence, some sort of hybrid gameplay between MNK and DRG.

Well, personal opinion on this xP

[Allyrion]

Not gonna say they wouldn't work on either MNK or DRG but I really like the tricky ways of the ROG and NIN, so, I would rather see those on a NIN.

A reason as of why Positionals sound so interesting for me is ironically because the current rotation, as Silent has already reminded us way too many times, is quite the tight one.

So I think Positionals could be used in order to evolve NIN's rotation and add even more Weaponskills aside from the current combos of AE, DE, SF and Mu. Hence, some sort of hybrid gameplay between MNK and DRG.

Well, personal opinion on this xP

It's not that I disagree, but that's a big decision.
It turns NIN from getting some positionals to be more in-line with other melee, to positionals being a core mechanic to work around.
And with more unique positionals than rest.

I, personally, might not mind it that much, but it doesn't seem like a natural evolution of the Job.
I can see the tricky part of it. Just I think it might be a jump from where the class is right now.
Might be better later on.

[silentwindfr]

let's hope you are right, but even with this, i feel the ninja need more work over the combo system than simply add positional, i will never say it enough it's the easy way to add complexe gameplay to a jobs.
without forget that SE are quite rude and insulting to the player that did choose ninja because of the lack of positional!

and one more point, how they will add it? the one like trick attack that simply don't add debuff if you are not in the right position or the one like the monk?
too much unknow... Yoshida presentation of the black mage was extremely long over a very simple system, when the ninja will have needed more explanation since the core mechanic of the combo system was changed.

[Zamii]

trick attack does 200 potency if my memory serves when it misses the positional instead of 400, but either way, SE seems to be going for more of a monk style of positional moves now (lower potency but buff/debuff still takes effect) on missed positionals, either way it shouldnt make a difference in the grand scheme of things, just hit the positionals and you'll have nothing to worry about :P

[DGladius]

trick attack does 200 potency if my memory serves when it misses the positional instead of 400, but either way, SE seems to be going for more of a monk style of positional moves now (lower potency but buff/debuff still takes effect) on missed positionals, either way it shouldnt make a difference in the grand scheme of things, just hit the positionals and you'll have nothing to worry about :P

Trick attack does 240 potency with no bonus 10% vulnerability when you miss the positional. I certainly hope the new positional moves added will just be more potency bonus.

[silentwindfr]

exept trick attack missed positional = 60 second lost since the debuff will not be placed on the monster.
not without forget that you seems to ignore the fact that ninja combo system is not adapted to positional, since we will still begin our combo with the same freaking skill. instead to develop it for make it viable for positional, they did decide to add it for no good damn reason. explain something, why add a positional to the ninja, while taking out most of the positional from the dragoon? because impulse drive and Disembowel had positional... me all i see it's a way to place more restriction on the ninja, while making the dragoon more interesting.

everything they have done to the dragoon was for make it more lovable. more option, while adding more and more restriction to the ninja. worst i'm scared to see the potency of the two new skill in 4th position of combo behind full thrust and chaos thrust. i don't say that ninja will be low in dps (even if keep the dps to the max will be more complexe and will ask far more skill than with monk and dragoon) but god! i don't understand what they try to accomplish with the ninja!

Trick attack does 240 potency with no bonus 10% vulnerability when you miss the positional. I certainly hope the new positional moves added will just be more potency bonus.

exept the potency bonus, will not be bonus... the skill they will change will still be there without heavenward, then for keep the balance like we have now... this skill will loose dps if you can't match the positional. the dps with positional will be the one we have without it actually!

wake up guys, the positional is not a boost, it was clearly announced like a restriction over the ninja, because: only tank attack head-on... god this excuse is the worst ever they have give us!

[Atreides]

One of many reasons why I'm switching back to monk in heavensward, the mudra system is complex enough and I don't need unnecessarily added positionals on top of that.
The fact that EU servers are still a thing of the future doesn't help, so I'd have to deal with mudra lag still and get slapped with positionals, while Monks and Dragoons get those amazing changes that just makes you drool.
Back to muscle memory Monk with every buff that I ever wanted for that job.