We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Judge_Xero]

Looking at new Monk vids i125+ with single target numbers in the low 600's (very nice) it shows that the rate at which SMN damage increases is low.

I would attribute it to the stat weights more than gear and/or MP conservation especially against Melee classes.

Given SMN's low Magic Damage weight 6.57 (20-40% lower than other classes) and the rate that secondary stats increase 7-10% per 10 iLvls there is a stat scaling balance issue.

At low iLvl's where the secondary stats started relatively high compared to Weapon/Main stats, SMN did competitively well. But due to the rate that the main stats increase VS secondary stats, and how SMN skill potency was balanced against other classes on release, each update in gear will see a reduced increase in SMN damage.

Comparison to BLM

@ ~3 MD per 10 iLVL's BLM will accelerate past SMN at a Rate of 4 INT per MD. This doesn't include the low Secondary stat gain on SMN, especially Spell Speed.

i135 Weapon
BLM 656 Main Hand value - INT
SMN 539 Main Hand value - INT
Difference 117 INT

i70 Weapon
BLM 504 Main Hand Value - INT
SMN 413 Main Hand Value - INT
Difference 91 INT

The newest set of gear makes this very noticeable due to the amount of Spell Speed on the mage gear and how it scales with Summoner Damage. I haven't done the math but given BLM VS SMN BiS + the difference on scaling with WD/secondary stats we are probably looking at a difference of 40-60 INT. ~10% + on gear alone.

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I can see why they would take this approach since currently the pet scales off WD and INT at a higher rate than SMN (almost double, but it doesn't scale off Secondary Stats as a trade off) but the lesser increase on secondary stats causes SMN to fall behind. This appears to be an attempt to balance the Ratio of SMN to Pet damage on top of balancing SMN to all other classes.

My only guess to balance this would be to increase the damage scaling of pets from MD/INT (eventually pets will become a high % of overall SMN Damage though)

OR

Boost the weight of secondary stats for summoner - not ideal due to the non-static nature of gear secondary stats

OR

Most ideal IMO - Increase the Weight of MD for SMN and have the pet scale the same as SMN for all stats, including Spell Speed. In order to balance Magic Pets VS Melee pets, have DET scale the same way as it does for Melee and AA Damage.

I.E. - Garuda 2.4 GCD VS Ifrit 2.4 GCD for Flame Crush + DET Bonus for AA Damage, since AA doesn't scale off Spell Speed/Skill Speed
(to prevent SS from being too ideal for the use of Garuda over Ifrit)

This would just make pet damage an extension of the SMN (balanced as Raw Potency) instead of having to balance the pet on top of how the SMN performs. I.E. (A + B = C instead of A + B^2-(D+F))

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Because of this, I don't think SMN damage is being effected by a single issue.
It appears to be a combination of
- Gear/Stat Weights
- MP Management in long fights

I'm not convinced that MP management is the main issue that is reducing SMN potential over other classes, but rather a by-product of players trying to push every ounce of damage out of it to remain competitive with other classes. (Fester VS Energy Drain is such a miniscule portion of overall damage)

Patching SMN with potency increases will not address the gear scaling issues compared to other classes.
Increasing MP recovery/reducing spell cost will not address the damage difference to other classes approaching ilvl 131

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Does this mean that SMN is not good in current endgame content? No. But it does take a highly skilled SMN to push high enough numbers to compete with currently average players of other DPS classes (not including Bard).

Dummy Comparison iLVL 131

Estimated (Edited to bring DPS values to a less simulated amount)

SMN Single Target Damage @ i131 - 525 DPS (390 SMN + 135 PET) - Garuda
Melee 625
BRD 540
BLM 585
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Final Thoughts

Increase Summoner MD weight to around 7.5 - reduce how much the pet is effected by MD and INT and allow them to be effected by secondary stats.

[Sleigh]

Dummy Comparison iLVL 131

Estimated SMN Single Target Damage @ i131 - 560 DPS (410 SMN + 150 PET) - Garuda

Melee 640 +/- 15 DPS
BRD 560
BLM 620

I have a "friend" who parses and has i135 BLM and SMN weapons and no, SMN can't get to 560 (assuming a run without every Fester critting and going until 4 minutes) on a dummy without a whole lot of Foe's. BLM also can't even get close to 620 unless you have Foe's + Selene or an amazingly lucky run.

[Judge_Xero]

I have a "friend" who parses and has i135 BLM and SMN weapons and no, SMN can't get to 560 (assuming a run without every Fester critting and going until 4 minutes) on a dummy without a whole lot of Foe's. BLM also can't even get close to 620 unless you have Foe's + Selene or an amazingly lucky run.

If you don't mind me asking, how much DPS can your "Friend" do with BLM and SMN. Since I'm not i131 yet I was only able to simulate the damage based on what kind of damage I do currently on a Dummy (estimated).

The main point was to represent the growing gap between BLM and SMN (and Melee to a degree) in Single Target Damage. If you could give real world Dummy numbers that would make the comparison even better.

[Sleigh]

If you don't mind me asking, how much DPS can your "Friend" do with BLM and SMN. Since I'm not i131 yet I was only able to simulate the damage based on what kind of damage I do currently on a Dummy (estimated).

The main point was to represent the growing gap between BLM and SMN (and Melee to a degree) in Single Target Damage. If you could give real world Dummy numbers that would make the comparison even better.

My friend on average does about 500-510 around 4 minutes with SMN + Garuda (and is completely dry), and anywhere from 530-570 in the same time frame with BLM. This isn't max iLVL but it's relatively close.

The biggest hit against SMN vs BLM in a dummy (and to a tiny bit lesser extent real fight) scenario is how good Selene is for BLM. Selene is huge ... easily lets my friend do 20-30 more DPS over 4 minutes. SMN gets virtually nothing because those extra Ruins are bad for MP, which carries over to real fights in a negative way (well, not negative, but not good either). Foe's probably benefits SMN more on the opener than BLM, but it's much easier to utilize a second Foe's with BLM over SMN.

[Akiza]

Based on the way SE has been balancing the Summoner around other Dps and how they have been changing the stat weights so we have the lowest weights among the Dps (see below) I think they are doing this re balance the Summoner for 3.0. The storyline indicates the Summoner will have greater control over the Primal Essence and even be able to summon Primals in 3.0. If Summoners have greater control over the Primals Essence than the Pet has to make up a higher percentage of total damage than the Summoner. Also with the expansion SE is dropping Classes and Summoner along with all the others will become pure jobs so SE might go the Final Fantasy Tactic route with Summoner giving them more crowd control abilities, raid buffs and debuffs while the Scholar gets all the Arcanist abilities.
It's been a very long time since the weights for each job have been updated and I've noticed a lot of places, such as Ariyala, are still using the out-dated weights. In fact, the last "public" update for weights was 7 months ago, in this thread. I've posted the new weights for the Jobs on the forums, but of course, they're not exactly "easy" to find, seeing as they're all in different, individual threads and not collected in one lovely thread.
So, without further ado, here's the 2.4/2.45 updated Stat-Weights for all DPS jobs, excluding Black Mage. If you want to know anything about the Black Mage, please refer to /u/PuroStriders work, which can be found at his official forum thread.
Dragoon
WD: 9.349
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.327
CRT: 0.233
SS: 0.198
Monk
WD: 9.338
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.336
CRT: 0.214
SS: 0.206
Ninja
WD: 9.132
DEX: 1.000
DET: 0.325
CRT: 0.226
SS: 0.215
DISCLOSURE
The Skillspeed for Ninja was calculated without any latency issues. It's evident that Mudra's, coupled with Latency, delays your GDC by a fair amount. With a good connection, your Mudra's will delay your GDC by 0.5s every 20s or so.
If this applies to you, then the appropriate Skillspeed weight for Ninja is:
SS: 0.201
If you're being delayed by 1 second, it'll be approximately:
SS: 0.19
I will be reworking the Ninja's Skillspeed weight so it's a bit more accurate in the next few weeks.
Bard
WD: 9.429
DEX: 1.000
DET: 0.320
CRT: 0.339
SS: 0.161
Summoner
WD: 6.911
INT: 1.000
DET: 0.284
CRT: 0.232
SS: 0.098
If you have any questions about the methodology used to calculate these stat-weights, ask away and I'll answer. Though, a lot of answers will be answered in that previous thread I linked.
EDIT 1: Added crit for DRG. Ooops.
EDIT 2: Added NIN SS Disclosure.

[DarkStar]

Also with the expansion SE is dropping Classes and Summoner along with all the others will become pure jobs

Um, could you give a source on that? everything I've heard indicates that the classes we have so far will stay, and it's only the new jobs that will be 'pure' jobs.

[Razard]

Um, could you give a source on that? everything I've heard indicates that the classes we have so far will stay, and it's only the new jobs that will be 'pure' jobs.

I would take anything Akiza says with a literal Dump Truck of Salt.

[Atomnium]

Discuss seems pretty dead, oh well, I guess, we will see if we get anything decent for 3.0 (or not).
~
Meanwhile http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ck-Mage-Revamp
Kind of obvious when it's producer's job

It seems that SMN doesn't worth a little reply from community staffs either. I'm a bit salty to be honest.
Going to leave the thread here,
Merry Christmas to all fellow SMNs

[loreleidiangelo]

Both, I'd imagine. 450-480 is where I'm at on SMN, depending on the Turn. If well-played and in equivalent gear, MNK, DRG, NIN, and BLM would all be close to/exceeding 500. BRD is the only DPS that would be under SMN, but if they have a DRG and Ballad is not needed, BRD would edge out SMN as well.

400 is the highest I've hit, at i113 without a BRD to play Foe's. I have no idea where I'm failing but I see these numbers in the high 400's sometimes and wonder if I'm doing something wrong.

Either way, I'm always the lowest DPS in my raid and thats discouraging, especially considering that I feel like I play more "strategically" on SMN than any other DPS job due to the various tools and resources we have to manage.

[hallena]

~
Meanwhile http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ck-Mage-Revamp
Kind of obvious when it's producer's job

Read the last post in the second page of that thread