We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

[Orrias]

This doesn't really explain gear itemization this patch. There's no practical reason for the amount of spellspeed gear in 2.4. I understand that there are only so many combinations for gear but having spellspeed on our top tier weapon 2 patches in a row when every other DPS class has some variation of their two best stats just isn't right.

No, you're right. The higher the ilvl you achieve as SMN, the lower your Crit and Det values become. The depletion of Determination as your gear's ilv increases was/ is a worry of mine, as it most liekly is for other SMN's too.

In terms of the theoretical INT value for SMN weapons, in general, they're comparitvely lower than BLM's. Why? I don't know. Factoring in such things such as too high a Fester crit isn't the reason, nor would the secondary stats' contribution to overal DoT dps , as both would have minimal overall effects of SMN dps in FCoB given the mana woes.

[Xisin]

*huge sigh*

I Can't believe this thread turned into an huge BLM vs SMN war, this is kind of pathetic to see arguments coming from a main blm so the smns doesn't get any sort of buffs... You should be more focusing on asking a total rework update on BLM, mainly because of this :

Is kind of sad when you are an huge Final Fantasy fan and know how far more complete and complex the FFXIV-BLM should be. BLM need a real revamp.

Meanwhile, I'm personally well-informed that a good and lucky BLM will out-dps a good SMN and I couldn't care less to say the least xD.
Would I welcome the return of my Thunder? Of course! but what I really need as SMN is slightly more freedom on my mps management for long fights (even more when the said fight include a crazy amount of adds x.X).
Oh... And less Spell Speed on gears please >.>;;; Seriously SE, If you plan to continue the huge vertical gears progression, at least you should test them with every jobs ^.^;

I ignored your picture because its subjective, blm depth is fine. Smn really isnt that much more complex, its a toned down version of lock or an eq2 assassin, not hard and most of the headache of the job comes from pet management. my ui is a bit more complex than yours though and you are missing key abilities such as thunder 1

Itemization between the two should be separate due to how they work though, I agree.

I think bard's still need to be looked at before smn since it's been buffed what two times now?

A little off topic but the use of bard songs does affect balance between mages and physical dps, as it stands paeon is a very valuable song, much more for dps than ballad or foe. Bard is arguably the most op dps in the game atm in terms of slots granted in a pt. They are almost required.

Also, could this thread not become a BRD vs BLM vs SMN? Thanks in advance.

Changing one will have an effect on the other (blm and smn) mainly because the two compete for 1 slot in the meta. (physical dps 2 slots, healers 2 slots, tanks 2 slots, ranged 2 slots – bard is one of them.) Something needs to change so one of the casters aren’t left out of the meta indefinitely.

[Orrias]

Many of the proposals in this thread are buffs to Acn, which would implicitly buff Sch. Scholars don't need a buff ATM.

I was thinking more a long the lines of these tweaks being made to an existing, or an entirely new SMN trait, so as to remove any undesirable outcomes with SCH. Of course, the Dev Team could just introduce a new version of Energy Drain - similiar to how Stoneskin II was - for SMN exclusively.

It's true that SMN's and SCH's both share the same ingame trait abilities (from Arcanist). I guess it depends on how the two Jobs are intertwined code-wise. By the looks of it, it doesn'tt seem possible to add, remove or modify an Arcanist trait w/o it effecting both SCH and SMN.

It doesn't seem like any community rep cares to, or has the specifics of this problem. Heck it was was glossed over in the last LIVE letter...

So really, I'm not expecting any response as to how to fix the mana problem that SMN's have in FCoB, the dps inequality between the current Jobs in FCoB, or how the Arcanist class and SCH/ SMN Job are locked together. From their side of the fence, all that is visible is the amount of inane things they respond to, such as how much hair a player model has on it's chin/ whether or not the amount of days played can be displayed, instead of trying to shed some light on a branching topic which is bothersome to a fair amount of players.

[Lavieh]

It doesn't seem like any community rep cares to, or has the specifics of this problem. Heck it was was glossed over in the last LIVE letter...

.... From their side of the fence, all that is visible is the amount of inane things they respond to, such as how much hair a player model has on it's chin/ whether or not the amount of days played can be displayed, instead of trying to shed some light on a branching topic which is bothersome to a fair amount of players.

I completely agree, I think some acknowledgement of the issue would be nice. They have avoided SMN's like a plague really ever since they nerfed them. SMN's have gotten a few moderate tweaks to how pets function and a 10 MP save or so on Bio II but nothing much more... SE should show some concern.

[Ryans]

I'm confused as to why people are complaining about MP management in long fights. Melee have required paeon in a lot of content in order to maintain their maximum dps. Just because SMN is the only caster (out of two casters, so really that means nothing) that has a limited pool doesn't mean they need to be changed. If melee need a bard, so should casters.

[Hippo]

MNK rofl at blm vs smn argument lol

[Atomnium]

blm depth is fine. Smn really isnt that much more complex

BLM depth... Is fine? SMN isn't much complex? Subjective opinion though but I will try to remember that the next time I have to aoe a pack of mobs as SMN .
It must be total fortuity if back in the past, when grinding wanderer palace, brayflox, turn 4 and today qarn, people were only inviting blm and brd for speed runs.
It is also a coincidence if RMT-bots only roll BLMs, they obviously like the complexity and the depth of BLM job, of course!

You sir seems to enjoy BLM a lot and to be fair, I'm honestly pleased for you but let's not continue this "subjective" discuss xD
On a side note, your other arguments were interesting and like you said :

Something needs to change so one of the casters aren’t left out of the meta indefinitely.

those are wise words that the DEV team should pay more attentions (I wish, FFXIV had a PTS to avoid balance issues).

[Sleigh]

MNK rofl at blm vs smn argument lol

Why? This is way worse than MNK or NIN vs DRG; at least there are two melee spots groups have by and large. No, SMN vs BLM is quite an important matter since there's one spot and BLM is more effective in that role, even considering the advantages SMN can have over BLM. Role inter-balance is just as, if not more important than general balance between DPS.

BLM depth... Is fine? SMN isn't much complex? Subjective opinion though but I will try to remember that the next time I have to aoe a pack of mobs as SMN .
It must be total fortuity if back in the past, when grinding wanderer palace, brayflox, turn 4 and today qarn, people were only inviting blm and brd for speed runs.
It is also a coincidence if RMT-bots only roll BLMs, they obviously like the complexity and the depth of BLM job, of course!

It depends on the fight really. Mitigating movement can be more thought provoking than planning your Aetherflow and just working SMN DoTs + CDs in some fights, while in other fights BLM just does a relatively simple DPS rotation, even if most BLMs do a little something different from each other. I'd say the complexity of SMN in FCoB is more focused on not running out of OoM while simultaneously not embarrassing yourself to your other DPS, but that's just me.

[Valoiz]

Yesterday was bout drg... before bout mnk... before bou BLM... before bout Brd having too much dps.... now SMN... ppl its never happy.... SMN its the only class who can res in batlle... i have even OT with Titan.... Have huge/constant AOE dps.... SMNs are not for Lazy ppl... BLM its boring....

MNks are the best dps.. at the traning dummy...

SE dont touch my SMN.... waiting for more pets

If u want to buff something buff Ifrit

[Hiruke]

Yesterday was bout drg... before bout mnk... before bou BLM... before bout Brd having too much dps.... now SMN... ppl its never happy.... SMN its the only class who can res in batlle... i have even OT with Titan.... Have huge/constant AOE dps.... SMNs are not for Lazy ppl... BLM its boring....

MNks are the best dps.. at the traning dummy...

SE dont touch my SMN.... waiting for more pets

If u want to buff something buff Ifrit

Cool story................................................................................................................................................. You should throw some more dots at it.

People discuss these very relevant issues because they're relevant, not because they're stupid, lazy, or impossible to satisfy. You appear to have a lack of understanding of the reality on the ground if you think MNKs are only good on training dummies, or that SMN is perfectly fine. Whatever you're OTing with Titan, it's not relevant content. Just for fun, let's go through:

1) People complaining about DRG: Yeah, because it was bad. MNK and NIN had way more survivability AND way more dps. No one wanted DRGs.
2) People complaining about MNKs: Yeah, because it was bad. MNKs and melee in general had low dps because they constantly had to run away, lose stacks, not keep combos up, etc.
3) People complaining about BLMs: Yeah, because it was bad. No one wanted BLMs because their single target dps was garbage. It's still pretty bad, to be honest with you.
4) People complaining about BRDs: Yeah, because it was bad. BRD can STILL top dps charts on some fights that have excessive movement, because they can attack always and forevers. Even though their single target potential is the lowest, they still put up impressive numbers, and that's before buffing the damage of the rest of the raid.
5) People complaining about SMNs: Yeah, because it IS bad. SMN is now the lowest single target dps in actual fights, and will never be anything else except in fights custom tailored to them (like Levi EX). BLMs are almost as bad. Casters need a look. They don't need to be competitive in dps with physical dps, but they shouldn't be as far back as they are. Especially when for example BLM is a "pure dps job" according to Yoshida. Uh, no. MNK is a pure dps job.

6) You can battle raise? Sure, at the cost of a huge chunk of mp, greatly lowering your dps in most fights. If people are dying so much you need to Raise, things are already going very wrong.
7) You can OT with Titan? On what? Relic quest Chimera? Relic quest Hydra? Titan won't tank anything worth talking about. He'll just die.
8) You have huge/constant AoE dps? Sure, if you're a BLM. You can Bane stuff for fairly large AoE, but a BLM will destroy you, and other jobs can compete with you on AoE with large packs, probably destroy you. SMN only shines when there are multiple, but few, targets - ones that will survive constant DoTs and Festers, essentially letting you single target dps more than one thing at a time.
9) SMNs are not for lazy people? No, they're not, but they also aren't compensated for the hoops you have to jump through to keep your dps at the ceiling.
10) BLM is boring? What does that even have to do with everything?

11) MNK is only best dps on training dummy? No, they are the best dps on almost everything. If MNK isn't top, then BRD is, because movement heavy fight.