A Use for Classes.

[Bishop81]

Having an element wheel creates class segregation when it comes to progression. Without redoing the current mechanic entirely, how do you expect a BLM to dps if the mob is completely immune to ice or fire?

...

Perhaps you miss the part where the Yukiko said,

"And just to remind you: element wheel is only "one" example of how it can be done, there are many other possibilities!"

Jobs should not be exploiting weakness or what not.

Jobs should be "pick up and play" WoW-type classes. No preparation required but you have to dodge.

Classes could be the preparation heavy alternative for people with crap ping. Where combat leans more towards old school FF with less dependency on reaction time (and hence latency).

[Anatha]

I'm pretty sure they said you could start as a lvl 1 Dark Knight.

This isn't a "hero class", you don't get an instant 60 by playing one, you start from scratch, you just don't have a class, you're a DRK from the very start.

[FizzyGiggles]

What I see here, is the battle system of an MMORPG being compared to Past FF Titles of the Single Player, Turn Based variety. You cant base combat of a game like this on a turn based strategy system. It needs to be fluid and exciting, and dodging mechanics is part of the thrill of completing the duty. If this all boils down to having bat latency and dieing because of this, then that is individual issue. Theirs options, such as ping zapper, to assist in this, though the idea of needing a 3rd party tool to not succumb to a landslide is not what I would call, a good feature. This is something they need to work on but it will get better. This game is only a year old. As a BLM, we get to eat free attacks of both magic and physical types. So just utilize the tools at your disposal, cross your fingers, and dont alter a games battle system due to internet issues.

[RiceisNice]

...

And I responded in that an element wheel is not a way to be done. Heck, now that I reread his post, I'm not sure what context he was going at with the element wheel. Just what can you do with it outside of the weakness/absorption mechanic? We already have a BLM that is exclusive to the elements, trying to add onto that would only influence the BLM and lead to segregation.

Even if classes were designed to compensate with higher stats to ignore mechanics, they'd end up being better than jobs statistically (causing class/job segregation now, why would you ever bring a MNK when a PGL can straight up do more?). The game is designed with some minimal requirements, connections being one. Whether or not they design encounters to compensate for that is on their own end, especially with the state of the servers. Why would I ever want to bring someone into my static, knowingly they consistently have a connection issue?

I mean I agree that they should make some encounters more ping friendly, but that should be done through different raid difficulties, not improving classes (which is equally accessible by anyone, regardless of their ping) because if they do end up being better than jobs by being able to ignore boss mechanics, why would anyone bring jobs when they can grind their class?

In the end, I'd just rather them get rid of the class/job system entirely and have one streamlined class for each, OR build in specialized jobs that focuses on different roles or different gameplay (build upon differentiating SCH and SMN for example, or include more routes such as gladiator into pld/dps, marauder into war/dps, or even a different style of DPS for lancer, archer or THM). The way it is right now, you could remove bard from archer, and they'd still play exactly the same with more or less the same abilities. The cross classing is just meh in general because everyone ends up taking the same skills, some being required to playing efficently (provoke, swiftcast, invigorate), leaving no customization at all.

[Bishop81]

-snip-

They could add some other kind of "elemental wheel" that doesn't uses existing "elements". Your main concern is how certain Jobs will work right? e.g. BLM, if "elemental weakness" was introduced.

The "elements and resistances" in the game at the moment are currently ignored. They might as well just give BLM unaspected damage because whether if it's Fire or Ice makes next to no different to the mobs - i.e. it's "Fire" in name only. (I get that they put it in because you know, "Black Mage", what is a BLM without Blizzard or Fire.)

This is the WoW way of doing things. There is magic damage and physical damage (affected by armor). That's it. No "elemental wheel" at all.

If implemented, Jobs would do "unaspected damage" ignoring the "elemental wheel" - like they do now. They will be ignoring the "elemental wheel" defence-wise too - whatever little passive mitigation they have would be "unaspected" as well; that and they should be dodging.

[RiceisNice]

....

It exists for PvP (whatever's left of it anyway) because you can boost resistances with materia and specific equipment. For PvE, that's how it should be imo. I remember back in WoW raids where entire raids of enemies were resistant/immune to fire, arcane, frost, or a combination of them. Entire talent trees were useless for a time being, and it's gotten as bad as the entire class itself in some cases.

Physical and Magic damage is separated for debuffs (Foe reqieum for example), buffs and specific encounters (such as the drones in T4). I don't even understand what you want to aim for right now with that last post. In the end, all dps jobs deal damage and physical/magic is just in name, but in the end is that they still allow for differentiating playstyles. The last thing we want to do is favor or the other (instead opt out for a balance for group compositions).

They could add in new elements, but I'm not sure on their stance of keeping it as close to FF as possible in name (this includes the existing elements, not come up with some random one like desturctianium or Obliteration). I mean another example is introduce a class that can do debuffs that amplifies their own damage (which divides into a set of skills) but now that leads to the delicate balance of "can this class be compeitive with other DPS classes under ideal circumstances? Would stacking them be favorable? Do we have to stack them?"

[Bishop81]

It exists for PvP (whatever's left of it anyway) because you can boost resistances with materia and specific equipment. For PvE, that's how it should be imo. I remember back in WoW raids where entire raids of enemies were resistant/immune to fire, ...

This isn't WoW. Not everything has to be like WoW. Get over it.

And if you want WoW-type combat, just equip your Job Stone, get the latest Tomestone/Vendor gear, and away you go.

I'm just asking for an alternative for players who can't do the dodging due to latency, where they trade having to dodge for having to prepare more.

Where "prepare more" =

• collect skills and gear,
• put together a load out from available skills and gear that would work well with the encounter

Job (ultra convenient WoW-type class)

or

Class (preparation heavy old school RPG class)

it's completely your choice.

[RiceisNice]

...

Which brings back to a point I previously made; if you can grind classes and they can ignore mechanics, why even bother with jobs? Why go through an entire grind to accommodate latency-dependent encounters instead of tuning the encounters to accommodate for the average latency?

If a class has more hp to be more reliable to survive unavoidable AoE, why would I want to bring a job that has a lower overall survivability while not briging more DPS (which is the current problem with DRG in FCoB)? Not mention you get more HP anyway by melding Ilvl90 accessories with vitality in the current state of the game anyway.

My end line is that we don't want a environment where class can perform better than a job, or vice versa. Otherwise, it renders the entire concept moot. If we have to boost the classes to accommodate for something like latency, why cant they just tune the encounter instead of that, because adding onto the class affects all encounters, not just a specific one.

And I keep bringing WoW as an example because they have tried doing something like that in the past, and it just straight up didn't work out (element wheel), unless you want to come up with an example that we can build upon. Granted I don't think you were the one that was brought up the concept of element wheel, but we just instead built upon it.

[Yukiko]

Why do you think Action Combat games nowadays are using slowmotions?
As the name says, it should not be easy to reach HardCap.
Currently we have physical and magical resistance, look at Leviathan and how "immune" he is. (Maybe T4 is a better example)
Does it make a class useless in PvP because we can add Elemental Materia?

I am playing FFXIV because its a Final Fantasy and therefore i have some bonding to the traditional combat style.
If they change too much it is no longer a Final Fantasy and currently it feels like playing a generic F2P game in a FF universe.
I do not know how long the "Story" or "FF universe" can keep me playing if i do not enjoy the combat...
First: Not all FF games were singleplayer and i am not talking from FFXI
Secund: Not all FF games had turn based combats and i am not talking from ATB system

Since 1.0 alpha we are discussing about the combat system, but thats another story! I still do not know why SE ignores the players, there were some good discussions in old forum.

[ChazNatlo]

I have a number of things to say, but I'll slam my nose into the thousand words and keep going, so I'll keep with one prevalent question.

Obviously in your system, Jobs wouldn't be able to play like classes. As a job, you sit still you die. I realise you are having trouble explaining yourself, but it sounds like you'd have classes trump jobs in trms of raw power, being able to sit still and ignore mechanics with preparation, Would you then be able to play a class like a job and get the best of both worlds? Maximize Damage by focusing all your preparation on the hurtin the enemy side of things and save yourself the damage by keeping up your mobility? Cause that sounds a little uneven.

I'll comment again with other points later.