Nin BiS?

[Alchemii]

Hi there, thought I'd get a few peoples insight on this and see if I'm right about this or not.

So after messing around with it on Ariyala a bit, I ended up putting together a full crafted set up + materia (and using the Relic Nexus) and a T13 (Using Dreadwyrm Daggers) end game set. The numbers ended up surprising.

So the full crafted ended up with the Stats of:
Dex: 594, Acc: 548, Crit: 512, Det: 394, Skill: 522

The "Endgame" ended up with:
Dex: 654, Acc: 519, Crit: 471, Det: 386, Skill: 393

Now for that wonderful numbers game.....
First thing to keep in mind the Acc for T13, based on what I found it's about 545. So no matter what your gonna need to either use food with the endgame build, or lose out on a good bit of dps.
Also I'm taking into account the Ariyala numbers for determining dps, so Dex = 1, Det = 0.332, Crit/Skill = 0.187

[Alchemii]

So since the Endgame is going to have to use food I'm going to apply food buffs to both sets Crafted is going to use Black Truffles Risotto HQ (2% Crit Max: 11 and 5% Det Max 17) and Endgame is going to use Steamed Catfish HQ (5% Acc Max: 30 and 2% Crit Max 12).

Ok numbers after applying food buff
Crafted: Dex: 594, Acc: 548, Crit 522, Det 411, Skill 522
Endgame: Dex 654, Acc: 544, Crit 480, Det 386, Skill 393

Ok so now for the final calculations with all the math done
Crafted: Dex: 594, Acc 548, Crit 97.614, Det 173.304, Skill 97.614
Endgame: Dex 654, Acc 544, Crit 89.76, Det 128.152, Skill 73.491

Last thing the damage on the weapon
Relix Nexus: Physical Damage 53 Magic Damage 39 DPS 17.67
Dreadwyrm Dagger: Physical Damage 58 Magic Damage 41 DPS 19.33

Ok so here's my question, with the weapon damage taken into account does the Endgame gear actually beat out the Crafted, or do the off stats actually Overpower the extra damage of the Dreadwyrm daggers.

[Taliss]

Looks like you're losing 60 dex and 5 weapon damage, I don't think secondaries are going to make up that damage loss. Also... don't you need like 600 acc / crit to get max bonus out of steamed catfish?

[whiskeybravo]

I would look again at your crafted items.. Avoiding skill speed I came up with 618 dex, 547 acc, 545 crit, 407 det, 378 sksp.. You can see if this works I've never linked anything from there: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQSB

[Alchemii]

Looks like you're losing 60 dex and 5 weapon damage, I don't think secondaries are going to make up that damage loss. Also... don't you need like 600 acc / crit to get max bonus out of steamed catfish?

The lose of the 60 dex is actually made up for, it's the 5 weapon damage I'm worried about. If you look at the second post, you'll see where I did the math for the percentages and notice that it's more than made up for with about 20 extra points to spare, my concern is based entirely on the loss of the 5 weapon damage. As for the catfish this is true, but the other foods will not give you the 545 acc for T13 cap. Even with the catfish it leaves the "Endgame" set at 544, 1 point off.

[Alchemii]

I would look again at your crafted items.. Avoiding skill speed I came up with 618 dex, 547 acc, 545 crit, 407 det, 378 sksp.. You can see if this works I've never linked anything from there: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQSB

So 2 things about this approach first why'd you sacrifice det? That's the best secondary stat. I'm just not seeing where you lose it at is all. Second Crit and Sksp on a nin are both an even stat, unlike other jobs, this is most caused by how low their TP cost is. Anyway I did it the way I did because I kinda looked at it and said "1 point of crit is not worse the loss of 9 points of sksp." or "1 point of Det is not worth the loss of 9 points of sksp." since crit = sksp and 1 det = 3 sksp.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQXJ
That's the one I came up with, I'll look it over again just to make sure I didn't accidentally put sksp where I should have put det or crit.
Edit: Correction there was 1 materia where I should have put crit over sksp and didn't here's the new one:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQXO
Unless your referring to the Relic in which case the answer is simple, Huton. Huton is a 15% attack speed bonus, well last I checked that actually effected both how fast your auto attack goes and your sksp. so it's a 15% bonus on sksp and your auto attack is 15% faster.

[whiskeybravo]

I didn't sacrifice any det that was available unless there was something that had skill speed on it, but it's kind of mixed up, a few of the crafted pieces have sksp so I didn't use them.

Also note that the stat weights for NIN on that site are pulled from MNK stats, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are correct. Most likely crit has a higher value then present because for MNK they have traited Internal Release and crit Bootshines so Crit isn't weighted as heavy as the other classes. Secondly, if you play around with the site long enough you'll notice that little changes to the stat weights don't always result in new gear being determined as BiS. However - little changes to the stat weights when calculating totals such as you have DO make a big difference. It's just something to keep in mind, stat weights aren't permanent fixtures like measuring an inch or foot or mile. Most important is the concept of Det > Crit > SkSp when comparing gears.

[Alchemii]

Regardless even after changing everything around to focus more on crit than sksp. I'm still not seeing how you got the numbers you did. You ended up with less crit than me, and way less sksp. I even went and changes the relic to be crit and det. http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OQYG

[whiskeybravo]

I'm still not seeing how you got the numbers you did.

It's helpful to break it down per progression:

545 acc crafted gear w/o FCoB drops - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR7U
(575 dex, 621 crit, 392 det, 414 sksp)

549 acc w/ FCoB drops/augmented magitek pre-t13 - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR7Y
(644 dex, 534 crit, 389 crit, 360 sksp) *can gain 11 det with t12 ring but also drops 20 acc so meh, better to eat det food*

544 acc w/ t13 weapon - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OR83
(649 dex, 470 crit, 401 det, 417 sksp) *not impressed with this set really, could probably sub some crafted stuff for better stats at the loss of a little dex*

So, I'd propose these stat weights as a provisional measure for use in theorycrafting until solid data is acquired.

Crit: 0.250
Det: 0.332
Speed: 0.187

Yes, that's what I was using pretty much as well. I think crit is very good for Ninja, maybe as good as det. One thing I noticed is the NIN auto-attack is really weak.. The weakest of the melee/brd auto-attacks. Depending on how det affects the auto-attacks, those crit AA are really nice (crit is nice on all attacks, but especially the auto-attacks, trick attack and raitons). Just my thoughts on it.

[Alchemii]

Yes, that's what I was using pretty much as well. I think crit is very good for Ninja, maybe as good as det. One thing I noticed is the NIN auto-attack is really weak.. The weakest of the melee/brd auto-attacks. Depending on how det affects the auto-attacks, those crit AA are really nice (crit is nice on all attacks, but especially the auto-attacks, trick attack and raitons). Just my thoughts on it.

Right now, I'm still somewhat inclined to believe that crit is equal to sksp, but that is probably going to change on monday with the patch. That increase to TP cost would make it not as impressive, depending on how much they increase it by, at which point I'll probably agree that it would be up almost up to det. As for the AA, I think that's because of the there 70sec buff that increases auto attack speed. The ability to hit more often often makes up for the not hitting as hard.