Who is Optional – A Question of Consumer Value

[Mook_Mook]

Im very amused at how many people missed the point of this thread
Selling minions to people is the same as selling raid gear to people. People are so narrow minded in there perspective they cant see it from someone elses point of view. Kind of sad with the lack of empathy for people who have had there experiences ruined.

[M0xie]

<<huge post above>>

Your post is too big to cut in the specific points you've made so I hope you can follow along with this okay...

Yes, theme park style is for "players." Are people who only collect items really playing the game? In terms of pace of playing the game (hardcore/casual), we have end-game raids or just doing simple dungeons to get relatively the same level stuff. Career crafters and gatherers are playing the game; of course they don't have dungeons but they have their own goals and objectives as playable jobs in the game.

Minions and mounts are all "features" available to add variety to the game, but still not really part of the game's objectives/purpose, hence optional.
Legendary end game weapons/armor can't be sold and therefore aren't on the market board. They're won, by playing in raids and dungeons on a DoW/DoM class. Minions and glamour items cost more because people are more interested in just buying those items than playing enough to win them/make them. (Minus the Odin mount of course.)

People continue to fight primals because they're working on obtaining the items by playing through traditional, intended means. Although I still suspect we'll see an Odin mount that's dropped.

Maybe the people who derive so much joy from collecting mounts and minions should play the game and obtain them instead of buying them on the market board or now, the cash shop. (Though I do think the two different eternal bonding ceremonies is kind of low.)

The items being offered in the cash shop can be important to players too, who spend time playing in dungeons or whatever is needed to obtain them (again minus the Odin mount).

News flash, EQ (subscription-based) has successfully released paid expansions every six months for 15 years and people still buy them. If you don't buy the expansion, you don't get the content and/or can't go to the zones/level up/etc. This is not a new concept!

[Rubieus]

Optional: Playing this game.
Not Optional: Heart Beating
Suboptional: Breathing

Complaining about not getting your money's worth: Optional
Forgetting that this is all new territory: Optional
Being a jerk in DF: Optional

Sorry if I am rambling, but the point is, when you agreed to TOS and logged in your very first time, you agreed to pay for a service, which was to give you an MMORPG FF-themed experience. You would borrow a character slot and get to make any character you wanted and do anything you wanted with them. as long as it was within the scope of the game. If you chose not to progress in any of the quests or content. That is your choice, it is optional. Nothing in this game is a requirement unless PROGRESSION is your goal. In which case, select things become optional and the rest are mandatory.

Want a house? Start making gil. Want to make cool music videos? Start clearing content. Want to get married? Find someone who will tolerate you.
Want to get married with more flair? Pay a little more for it.

I do have one small problem with this though: If, SE decides to start selling expanded content on CS like this wedding stuff. What is going to stop them from adding in new things like bigger houses or upgrades for houses, bigger gardens and the like? I already own 4 Retainers while not directly Pay to Win, it does make my life less stressful and gives me more space to farm and horde things for future patches so I can sell for a bunch.

I am not against this decision by SE, but I really hope the content they implement is satisfactory and don't make the player feel as if they are missing out because they didn't buy the expanded version on CS.

[Shougun]

Lol I've never actually played minecraft. I just gathered there's no actual objectives and it's basically digital free form legos with added functionalities. Had no idea there were actual objectives of any kind lol. But generally I agree. But when it comes to definitions, it just makes me sense to use the universal or broader definitions. When people take words and apply their own personal meanings in discussion (especially a text medium in a large group like forums) all it does is convoluted and confuse the issue making honest debate nigh impossible. I hate debates where 'everyone's right because we're using free form definitions' that's not helpful and does nothing but make people talk in circles. We can't all have our personal definitions of p2w and then have a rational discussion if cash shop is p2w or not. It just gets ridiculous (as we've seen).

And by actually being specific we (at least the 2 of us) have come to realize we don't actually fundamentally disagree and can actually develop the conversation instead of just yell how wrong the other is louder. Wish more people would.

There are some quests you can pick up from the npc towns, I think that is the easiest way to argue objective, but there is also some crafted armor and tools that have tiers of progression. You need to move along the tiers to effectively reach the next (and certain materials literally require a specific tier). Though, you're right that its not the strongest objective based game lol (since it is so free form you may argue that building vanity can be a form of success and objective but.. yeah more in the realm of opinions now).

I think some of the more memorable conversations are not emphatic agreement on some game idea but earnest attempt at conversation, the patient, conscious desire to have honest communication, which can work around misunderstandings or disagreements to at least a mutual place of knowing.

I try not to put too much time into the forums (post count seems to sell me out sometimes) but I'll be happy to look for constructive talks with you when I can muster something intelligible on a shared topic

Bit more to thread, I'm not a fan of the shop but I find the most annoying not optional option is the two-seater mount. You can't really have that feature in the game without going through some sort of pay wall. There is not a native feature for this.. My two grains of rice to add on the mountain. SE, at some point.. <3?

[MeiUshu]

People that they are not going to sell anything that gives any advantage in game, you sound like a politician, where words have a meaning only at the time they were said. What is important here is what is happening tomorrow, next month, week, year....which we cannot speak of as a certainty only as a perhaps or maybe but potentially possible

Let me argue with you

Sell gears that are not found in-game : through dungeons that require a pass to enter which will cost money and in turn they offer exclusive gears that would drop from there (double gain) and there you have gears that are only available to those that can afford

Gils : easy to sell those, have the subs available in-game via gils how ? you buy for real money a monthly sub and sell it in the market in-game for gils for those that dont have real life money but have gils.....yeah? you have never seen this ? believe me it exists, there you have allowed RMT

Acces to exclusive dungeons : easy sell passes for those that unlock unlimited entry for a day for example, maybe these passes can be sold in-game as well, see what I mean

and so forth...you tihnk is not going to happen ? who allows you to say is NOT going to happen? so many times this has been heard and it has happens still how can you still believe that because you dont want to see it happening is not going to ?

Being naive is good but with a touch of realism it would be better.

what you believe today is only valide today, tomorrow this may change totally, so really the only answer to this non sense...wait and see and analyze your situation based on your own wishes and desire if you dont like then leave, simpel as that nobody forces you to accept anything that you dont want to, complaining wont change what has been decided already, it will only make you sad and angry over something that is not worth all this.

Mei

[Seoulstar]

Im very amused at how many people missed the point of this thread
Selling minions to people is the same as selling raid gear to people. People are so narrow minded in there perspective they cant see it from someone elses point of view. Kind of sad with the lack of empathy for people who have had there experiences ruined.

I'm curious to know how it's even remotely the same thing since one is just something following you around as compared to the other which affects your character stats..

[Serdapi]

Anything that does not advance you in Story or iLvl is vanity content. Vanity content is not the over all goal of a game, yes it is in the game and you can put it as a goal for yourself but the game was not designed that way. The game has a story and raids that progress your character in that story, this is the main goal of the game. If you want a game that is based around Vanity content go play the Sims.

If you want to do things outside the scope of the main goal and the developers give you the option to do so but it comes with a price its fine because it does not involve further or hinder people from the main goal of the game. You choose to participate in this vanity content, in doing so you have the great option of making it better by paying more, you also have the option of not paying at all. You should be happy there is even a choice of not paying, because this content is not even close to the purpose of the game. Everyone complaining needs to get over themself, you are part of the problem. Please do not complain about vanity content in a story based, progressional game. As I said if you want to play a vanity game the Sims Online or Second Life are still around.

[KodiHivaer]

Selling minions to people is the same as selling raid gear to people..

You've heard it here people, minions give your character advantages over other players...

[Malevicton]

I have this problem in other games too. Hopped onto a Call of Duty server, and no one else knew how to play the diplomacy mini-game I'd made up; they just kept attacking each other like barbarians! It was disgusting. Even though it was an online game where we each were supposed to be able to pursue independent interpretations of "fun" and "success" people were trampling over my right to host a friendly summit in the middle of the map. Personally I think those violent miscreants were just a vocal minority. Call of Duty had better update their game design to allow all avenues of enjoyment or the entire gaming industry might collapse under the weight of its failure.

[Teryaani]

Wrong usage of pay to win. Those words have been losing the meaning for some years. Paying to win means buying something that it's exclusive and gives adventage, weapons with higher stats than those you can get in-game for example.

No, they haven't. Pay to win refers to games that allow you to purchase weapons, armor, buffs that give you an edge over a player in end game content (the "win" portion of pay to win). You're trying to change the definition to fit your argument. Minions, mounts, and glamours give no advantage in end game, therefore they are not pay to win.