Who is Optional – A Question of Consumer Value

[Dyvid]

Just because YOU decide that collecting minions/mounts/vanity is 'winning' doesn't make offering them in shop p2w anymore than deciding that the team who squeaks their shoes the most wins a basketball game. If that's how you enjoy playing, that's great, but making up your own mini game doesn't change the rules. SE decided what constitutes an advantage over other players. Not you. They have deemed items that increase the capability of a job to perform it's (se designed) function as the rule. Vanity gear is all stateless Lv 1 gear. Minions don't increase your str or gathering skill. Bought mounts don't run faster than free mounts.

SE has decided that aesthetic items do not help you perform any activity in the game. Just because you decide that collecting minions means you win doesn't mean SE agrees with you. SE makes the rules and the world and the law if the land is aesthetics are separated from any direct influence on any other aspect of the game and therefore give no tangible advantage. Buying things that have no influence on anything else means they aren't helping you win and SE decided that. You don't have to like it, but unfortunately for vaniteers it isn't your choice. It's SEs.

So what you're saying is the paying customers and fan base shouldn't have a say except quit when they are displeased? Let's ask this though, Starlight is coming up and the question is would you be okay if the only reward for that was a snowflake firework while all the other Christmas themed "fluff" was for sell on the Cash Shop?

[Izsha]

So what you're saying is the paying customers and fan base shouldn't have a say except quit when they are displeased? Let's ask this though, Starlight is coming up and the question is would you be okay if the only reward for that was a snowflake firework while all the other Christmas themed "fluff" was for sell on the Cash Shop?

It is fluff. SE decided it's fluff. A similar example already happened. Old Halloween gear got put in the shop when previous events had the old gear from the same event at an npc. If SE decides to decorate the town but have zero costumes this Xmas event then it doesn't matter if I like it or not. My point is that I cannot claim it's p2w just because I decide my personal goal is collect holiday gear. My like or dislike has zero bearing on vanity gear being p2w.

That's the point a lot of people are missing that I'm trying to make. You don't have to like the cash shop or cash shop exclusives, but what is simply not true is putting vanity stuff in the shop and screaming it's p2w because SE decides what winning is. You are free to enjoy the game in whatever way floats your boat, but you don't get to redefine the game SE created.

To expand on my previous example, if the NBA approves new shoes that look different and squeak more but are very expensive and have no impact on the actual basketball game, you don't get to shout 'p2w not fair!' Because you and some friends declare the most squeaky team the winner. You didn't make the game. You can do what you want in you backyard but not rage out at the NBA over vanity shoes that squeak more.

What I am NOT saying is you can't have an opinion. What I'm trying to point out is that the idea that vanity exclusives in shop is in no way p2w because SE decides what winning is. I don't really care if you like shop or not. I'm honestly pretty neutral about the while thing. But this stance rooted in vanity=winning used to justify shop as p2w doesn't have much rational basis.

[Shougun]

It is fluff. SE decided it's fluff. A similar example already happened. Old Halloween gear got put in the shop when previous events had the old gear from the same event at an npc. If SE decides to decorate the town but have zero costumes this Xmas event then it doesn't matter if I like it or not. My point is that I cannot claim it's p2w just because I decide my personal goal is collect holiday gear. My like or dislike has zero bearing on vanity gear being p2w.

That's the point a lot of people are missing that I'm trying to make. You don't have to like the cash shop or cash shop exclusives, but what is simply not true is putting vanity stuff in the shop and screaming it's p2w because SE decides what winning is. You are free to enjoy the game in whatever way floats your boat, but you don't get to redefine the game SE created.

To expand on my previous example, if the NBA approves new shoes that look different and squeak more but are very expensive and have no impact on the actual basketball game, you don't get to shout 'p2w not fair!' Because you and some friends declare the most squeaky team the winner. You didn't make the game. You can do what you want in you backyard but not rage out at the NBA over vanity shoes that squeak more.

What I am NOT saying is you can't have an opinion. What I'm trying to point out is that the idea that vanity exclusives in shop is in no way p2w because SE decides what winning is. I don't really care if you like shop or not. I'm honestly pretty neutral about the while thing. But this stance rooted in vanity=winning used to justify shop as p2w doesn't have much rational basis.

Out of curiousity what prevents SE from saying some battle related item is fluff/not pay to win. Say they sold some of the end raid gear, but it was also available in the game. SE said it isn't pay to win, obviously many players would consider this to be a lie but.. if we aren't allowed to use the definition of "win" or the popular definition of P2W then we must use SE's and SE could do whatever it wanted lol.

*flips table* Its my story. *cries*

[Izsha]

Out of curiousity what prevents SE from saying some battle related item is fluff/not pay to win. Say they sold some of the end raid gear, but it was also available in the game. SE said it isn't pay to win, obviously many players would consider this to be a lie but.. if we aren't allowed to use the definition of "win" then we must use SE's and SE could do whatever it wanted lol.

*flips table* Its my story. *cries*

That's just it. If SE decided that the game was taking a new direction with heavensward and, for example, that saucer was to be the main focus with minigames, ranking systems, tournaments and such and leave the PvE as kinda a side content, then they very well could sell raid gear or raids themselves in shop and it wouldn't be p2w if the game did seriously do an about face.

Don't misconstrue this position with me 'liking' that idea or white knight ing anything SE does no matter how stupid. If the game changes direction to something I don't like then I'm free to find a game that is more in line with my interests. Similarly if the only reason you play is to collect mounts, you might want to take a serious look if this is the right game for you. Just like if you are a PvP fanatic you may want to consider a more pvp focused game. If you live farming/growing this games gardening may not be enough for you. This game doesnt have a huge focus on those activities. That's not being rude, that's just common sense. If you are super serious and centralize your gameplay around 1 element, maybe you should find a game that also focuses on that element.