Who is Optional – A Question of Consumer Value

[Riepah]

Everyone still has an equal chance. It's the same price for everyone, and nothing in the cash shop is available by some other means. If it's trophies you're interested in, then nothing in the cash shop should be interesting because you can't pretend you got it the "hard" way (because there isn't one).

So you'd be fine with ilvl 140++ items being sold in the cash shop, because everyone would have the same chance to get them as they'd be the same price?

I earn the item with effort too, by working and exchanging my work for an item that I want. Seems to be no different from earning Gil in-game and buying said minions from the Market Board.

It also seems to be no different from buying gil from RMT.


EDIT for daily post limit:

I'm more speaking in terms of legal micro-transactions but the point is that if you're truly gonna champion for the idea that optional is not optional because different players have different play-styles then we really cannot discriminate and impose our own preferred or ideal play-styles on them, it'd be hypocritical to say i support and respect the preference of players and their play-styles but I do not support the play-styles of players who prefers to buy vanity off mogstation

Preferring to buy your progress in game rather than earning it is not a "play-style", because clicking "Purchase" in the mog-station is not playing. Besides, I've a hard time trying to understand why anyone would rather spend money on stuff than get it for free, considering they're already paying each month to play to begin with.

[RaquelleAvarosa]

So you'd be fine with ilvl 140++ items being sold in the cash shop, because everyone would have the same chance to get them as they'd be the same price?



It also seems to be no different from buying gil from RMT.

That'd be plain illegal.

I'm more speaking in terms of legal micro-transactions but the point is that if you're truly gonna champion for the idea that optional is not optional because different players have different play-styles then we really cannot discriminate and impose our own preferred or ideal play-styles on them, it'd be hypocritical to say i support and respect the preference of players and their play-styles but I do not support the play-styles of players who prefers to buy vanity off mogstation

[Jacost]

So you'd be fine with ilvl 140++ items being sold in the cash shop, because everyone would have the same chance to get them as they'd be the same price?

Pay to Win is an entirely different argument, one which I am firmly against and will lose SE my sub when they go down that route. Sure, everyone has an equal chance to get hypothetical super-items, but those that are willing to do so now have a mechanical advantage over others which they can use to, say, dominate Frontlines or get Coil gear that they want for vanity, becoming cash spent to get everything handed to you. It becomes necessary to pay more to stay competitive, and in the end only those willing to pay more remain in the game.

Whereas with minion collecting and whatnot you can make a good case that cash-shop stuff doesn't count when comparing how many minions your friends have, or if you want them just for the sake of having them but aren't willing to pay... frankly, get over yourself.

[AzakaTonnerre]

Preferring to buy your progress in game rather than earning it is not a "play-style", because clicking "Purchase" in the mog-station is not playing. Besides, I've a hard time trying to understand why anyone would rather spend money on stuff than get it for free, considering they're already paying each month to play to begin with.

Using your own argument (along with what others have mentioned), if you consider your progression to be based the amount of and what items you collected, preferring to buy your progress in collecting them in game rather than earning them is not a "play-style"because clicking "Purchase" in the mog-station is not playing.

See this argument can go around in circles for hours and hours because its is literally a question of each other's semantics when discussing what is important and optional to them. And there is nothing either side is going to do to change the opinion of the other. Throwing out a definition of what "pay-to-win" means, calling the use of the cash shop "supporting the game", stating that the items do not have impact. None of that will change anyone's stance.

SE provides what they'll say they'll provide for the price they set. What's optional and what isn't, at the end of the day, is solely at SE's discretion. Like it or not, they're holding all the cards here. If you disagree with them, then don't do business with them..

This is spot on whether you agree with the cash shop or not. No matter which side of the discussion you are on this is the most relevant post in this thread.

[RaquelleAvarosa]

That player has every chance of getting into FCoB as every other player though. That $15 a month puts all players on equal footing and the same chance as everyone else to get that content. Have we forgot that the point of a game is the journey to get to the end as well as the items? Your argument is saying that a minion collector expects to be able to get every minion immediately or with no work. No, they know they will have to do some grinding for things like the Bluebird or Opopo minions. However they are given the same chance of getting that as every other player.... well until the cash shop which now not only means you got to pay more, but it doesn't even give a meaningful activity to get that item, it just plops it into your inventory. Grats you know how to use a credit card!

Getting into is subjective, if I'm the world's worst RPG player, I could never get into FCoB let along beat the last boss and get all the vanity gear I wanted, in this case, my chances at the item I wanted is the same as someone who has an item they wanted locked behind a paywall.

In no ways am I saying that it is the same but the very same entitlement argument can be used in such a fashion as well and if players support the rationale that you need to be treated special because of your own preferred play-style then the same standards and rationale will need to be applied to a player who has an item they wanted, locked behind a skill-wall.

The purpose of a game can vary with the individual, isn't that the point of this thread? that different players have different play-style hence optional is not really optional? but all I see here is that you're imposing your own preference and play-style onto others and depriving them of enjoying their game because their play-style doesn't fit with yours.

In response to your argument of grinding and earning an item, one can also say I earn the item with effort too, by working and exchanging my hard-earned money for an item that I want. Seems to be no different from earning Gil in-game and buying said minions from the Market Board.

[Magis]

Getting into is subjective, if I'm the world's worst RPG player, I could never get into FCoB let along beat the last boss and get all the vanity gear I wanted, in this case, my chances at the item I wanted is the same as someone who has an item they wanted locked behind a paywall.

In no ways am I saying that it is the same but the very same entitlement argument can be used in such a fashion as well and if players support the rationale that you need to be treated special because of your own preferred play-style then the same standards and rationale will need to be applied to a player who has an item they wanted, locked behind a skill-wall.

The purpose of a game can vary with the individual, isn't that the point of this thread? that different players have different play-style hence optional is not really optional? but all I see here is that you're imposing your own preference and play-style onto others and depriving them of enjoying their game because their play-style doesn't fit with yours.

In response to your argument of grinding and earning an item, one can also say I earn the item with effort too, by working and exchanging my hard-earned money for an item that I want. Seems to be no different from earning Gil in-game and buying said minions from the Market Board.

Seeing as the point of games in general is to beat them then the idea of a skill wall is kinda ridiculous. No game guarantees you a victory, but it does guarantee content. You have the impression that because you payed for the game, then you deserve the end result of winning it, but no game other than ones with cheat codes I guess, gives that, it gives you the ability to challenge it's content, and as a reward also the end. Whoever buys the game get's the chance to access the end, regardless of who they are.

In this case, you are buying the game, and then are told to get other content, you must pay even more. On top of that, there isn't even a challenge, it's just handed to you... it defeats the purpose of a game.

Everyone still has an equal chance. It's the same price for everyone, and nothing in the cash shop is available by some other means. If it's trophies you're interested in, then nothing in the cash shop should be interesting because you can't pretend you got it the "hard" way (because there isn't one).

How is it an equal chance if you have to pay extra money?????????? By definition it's giving an advantage to players who give more money to SE.

[RaquelleAvarosa]

Seeing as the point of games in general is to beat them then the idea of a skill wall is kinda ridiculous. No game guarantees you a victory, but it does guarantee content. You have the impression that because you payed for the game, then you deserve the end result of winning it, but no game other than ones with cheat codes I guess, gives that, it gives you the ability to challenge it's content, and as a reward also the end. Whoever buys the game get's the chance to access the end, regardless of who they are.

In this case, you are buying the game, and then are told to get other content, you must pay even more. On top of that, there isn't even a challenge, it's just handed to you... it defeats the purpose of a game.

Understand that it is your concept of the purpose of a game, this topic is about how optional is not optional because some players play the game with vanity as their core game-play, for those players, beating the game is not necessarily the purpose of the game.

Content is only content when you can access it, if content is locked behind a skill-wall that you cannot overcome and therefore cannot access, is it still content? how different is it from someone who cannot access content locked behind a pay-wall? I'm asking this in a philosophical sense, I'm of course not actually asking for items to be given away for free

I'm just saying that you cannot use the argument of different players having different core game-play styles as a reason for why micro-transactions should not exist but yet say that another's game-play style is not valid.

IMO I think that people got to be more honest with what they want and feel, all I see are players spinning arguments of noble reasons of why micro-transactions is bad for everyone whereas its actually simply that they themselves do not want micro-transactions because it is their own preference to not have it.

[Jacost]

How is it an equal chance if you have to pay extra money?

Because anyone can pay extra money if they choose to? You act as though paying more is somehow more difficult than playing the game itself, even as you state otherwise in the same post. It's bizzare.

[Edeline]

It's funny how people focus on what other people get(or may get) more than their own. You saying that you're against people buying items from a raid that has been already killed and drops looted, why would you care if you should be able to do it yourself aswell. Why would it bother you that someone else buys what you already might own/get through in-game means. They paid to win what, the dungeons that people already won? Exclusivity in the other hand is different.

[KodiHivaer]

op·tion·al
ˈäpSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
available to be chosen but not obligatory.
"a wide range of optional excursions is offered"

choice
noun:
a range of possibilities from which one or more may be selected.
"you can have a sofa made to order in a choice of over forty fabrics"