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  1. #21
    Player
    DarkmoonVael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    1,014
    Character
    Darkmoon Vael
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 60
    Healing on a controller is not difficult at all (i heal on a ps4 with controller, raid as sch in FCoB, and know many others who heal at a competant raid level on controller), and targetting people through the party list is only an issue if you are not a good healer in the first place. Many people use the controller as an excuse sadly, rather than look at what they can do to improve their own healing/game.

    Although i commend your solution, it is a solution to a problem that doesnt really exist, and to some extent, a solution that just further complicates the matter.

    Also, to test this out properly, i think you would have to go into much much much harder content.
    (3)

  2. #22
    Player radioactive_lego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    391
    Character
    Adulate Prose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 52
    here I am on the defensive, again.
    I really think it's great you guys have no problem with how party targeting works. Do what works for you and run with it.

    I think dps/tank classes have wonderful targeting through L1/R1. It's incredibly simple and efficient; there's no need to deactvate your crosshotbar, there’s no "soft" targeting, and you can easily swtch targets on the move without use of "the claw".

    Why is it hard for so many of you to accept that I, and some others, want party targeting to have these same qualities? (This isnt a shout of anger, but a plea for accessability.)
    I would like a few minor changes to UI to enable this, but until those UI changes happen I will continue to take proactive steps through the UI that we are provided (even if they cause complications) to remedy the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael View Post
    Although i commend your solution, it is a solution to a problem that doesnt really exist, and to some extent, a solution that just further complicates the matter.
    I commend your commedation, but I feel that you are only 2/3 right. This is a solution and this solution complicates the matter. However, the problem absolutely exists.
    In order to deal with people who have my perspective, I humbly offer that insisting "there is no problem" and "just use the d-pad" is less than constructive, but I get a lot more of these responses in every post I make on this subject than "Have you tried this..., or this...?"
    (0)
    Last edited by radioactive_lego; 12-08-2014 at 11:17 AM.

  3. #23
    Player
    VanilleFang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,655
    Character
    Estellise Valesti
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    I don't understand... What is so hard about hitting up and down on the dpad exactly?
    (4)

  4. #24
    Player radioactive_lego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    391
    Character
    Adulate Prose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 52
    Quote Originally Posted by VanilleFang View Post
    I don't understand... What is so hard about hitting up and down on the dpad [to target players for healing] exactly?
    It's not hard, per se. However, it is cumbersome (higher probability for errors) for a variety of reasons. I'm quite passionate about this, because I feel that this one issue is the dead weight FFXIV needs to shed to be a truly great game. I've discussed these encumbrances elsewhere but I'm more than happy to explain, at length, again. I apologize for getting geeky and technical (boring).

    1. The Claw.
    I like to use an analogy of a modern semi-automatic pistol for this. Most modern pistols have a fire safety switch on both sides, which allows both right and left-handed users to actvate the switch with the thumb of the hand that is holding the weapon. This enables the off hand to support the weapon or hold another device (flashlight, radio, another weapon, etc.) Also, it's an easy argument to make that fire safeties on only one side of the weapon are less safe (at the very least, less convenient) since you must either switch hands or reach over the weapon with your off hand to engage the safety.
    Using the d-pad is a left-thumb specific input on the controller. This, coupled with the fact that most people use the left thumbstick for movement (default) makes targeting while moving problematic. To mitigate this problem, people reach with thier right hand to the d-pad, to change targets, aka; The Claw.
    Non-default user input options include making the right thumbstick the movement control, or complex macros. Both are widely, and rightly, criticized becasue they cause other problems.

    2. Toggle/Mixed vs Hold Hotbars*.
    The default hotbar activation scheme is "Hold". Players must hold the trigger button L2/R2 for using skills/casting, and release the trigger to enable player targeting through the d-pad. While not a huge ordeal, it does add a button press between the act of selecting a player and the act of casting. This can lead to finger strain and errors of input in "heated" situations. To alleviate finger strain many players (especially DPS/Tanks) choose to use Toggle or Mixed (T/M) hotbars. This allows for a press, rather than a hold, to (de)activate the hotbar. T/M hotbars, used in conjuction with hotbar swap macros, make it so DPS/tanks almost never have to deactivate a hotbar. They have have less errors because of this. If you heal, and you use T/M hotbars, you are placing an additional button press before AND after the party selection process, further slowing things down, and increasing the rate of errors.

    3. "Soft" Targeting.
    The ability to keep a target active while you momentarily shift to another party member for a single cast is commonly known as "soft" targeting. While many consider soft targeting a good/convenient thing, there are those of us who do not care for it. I see the advantages, but consider the disadvantages; A) If you want to hard target another player, there is an additional button press (select) prior to your cast (this contributes to error rate). B) If you want to cast multiple skills/spells on the same player, the actions below are common, given the hard targeted player is #3 (tank) and the desired target is #6 (DPS):
    i. release trigger
    ii. dpad dn
    iii. dpad dn
    iv. dpad dn
    v. press trigger
    vi. cast (esuna)
    vii. release trigger
    viii. dpad dn
    ix. dpad dn
    x. dpad dn
    xi. press trigger
    xii. cast (regen)
    Twelve distinct controller actions to cast two spells on a soft-targeted player. That's a lot of room for error.
    Now consider the number of distinct controller actions required if player targeting worked like enemy (hard) targeting (remember, there is no need to (de)activate hotbars):
    i. R1
    ii. R1
    iii. R1
    iv. cast (esuna)
    v. cast (regen)
    Five distinct contoller actions. Even if you add three more to re-target the tank (eight total) you are still saving button presses. If you do the math on hard targeting #6, casting two spells and re-hard-targeting the tank, you still end up pressing more buttons with the default setup. I see the advantage of not having to reselect the tank, if you are only casting a single spell on another player. However, more often than not, you will be casting 2-3 spells on the tank, then a spell on #7, then two on #5, then who knows... the bottom line is, soft targeting saves you minimally on the amount of up/dn presses for player targeting in Primal EX/Coil ops where all players are consistently taking damage/status effects. Furthermore, since you are forced to fiddle with (de)activation of hotbars, your error rate is higher. Which brings me to...

    4. Error Rate (Encumbrance).
    Errors in healing causes wipes. If the Monk doesn't max his DPS, or the Tank doesnt max aggro generation or durability, in most cases nobody will notice. If the healer doesnt get the right recovery spell, on target, on time, someone may die. "Sorry, I meant to Medica, but I Esuna'd." If you've played long enough, you've probably heard an excuse like this. It happens to the best healers out there. If they claim they're always perfect, they are lying.
    Fundamentals of engineering to reduce errors, malfunctions and failures centers on two entertwined principals; reduce the number of moving parts and decrease complexity. Consider that:
    - By moving player targeting to right-thumb or bumper (L1/R1) operations, complexity is decreased (no more "claw").
    - By reducing or eliminating the need to (de)activate the trigger and press select buttons between player selection and skill usage, complexity is decreased.
    Bottom line: D-pad targeting contributes to error rate.

    I hope this clarifies some misconseptions about the "difficulty" surrounding player targeting. While no team can be successful without the right balance of recovery, beef, and damage the healer is arguably the most valuable member, and as such should have targeting schemes at least on par with the other classes.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    On a side note, the link below references a suggestion in the User Interface forums. Addition of this suggestion would allow for macros to solve the player targeting issues discussed above, without the need to do insane hotbar swaps. I hope that you will verbally endorse the idea, if only out of curiosity, even if you are content with current mechanics.

    http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...os-with-hotbar

    -----------------------------------------------------

    TL;DR - *Consider the default method of player targeting analogous to driving a car with a standard transmission with a manually operated clutch. You must engage the clutch before shifting gears, and disengage the clutch before hitting the accelerator.
    Manually operated clutches are antiquated. F1, Le Mans, NASCAR, EU Touring, justabout every other "premier" auto racing institution, and most hypercars worth their salt have automatically operated clutches. Because of this:
    - Cars have improved performance.
    - The driver is less fatigued.
    - Operation is less complex, which allows the driver to focus on the road/race.

    Healers deserve to have access to hypercar control currently only available to tanks/dps.

    Thanks for reading.
    (0)
    Last edited by radioactive_lego; 01-27-2015 at 01:01 PM.

  5. #25
    Player
    VanilleFang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,655
    Character
    Estellise Valesti
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    I can see where you are coming from, and can see how it could help people who have the same issue. Personally I find healing with the dpad is quite nice. I'm a very big fan of soft targeting.

    It's interesting to see how people can feel so differently about the same system. It seems like you put some work and thought into your system here, so kudos. I personally won't use it but I hope someone does.
    (4)

  6. #26
    Player radioactive_lego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    391
    Character
    Adulate Prose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 52
    Quote Originally Posted by VanilleFang View Post
    I can see where you are coming from, and can see how it could help people who have the same issue. Personally I find healing with the dpad is quite nice. I'm a very big fan of soft targeting.

    It's interesting to see how people can feel so differently about the same system. It seems like you put some work and thought into your system here, so kudos. I personally won't use it but I hope someone does.
    Thnx. You get an upvote.

    FWIW, I don't use the ctrl scheme displayed in the OP anymore. It was simply an exhibition of how targeting without the "clutch" should work.
    (2)
    Last edited by radioactive_lego; 12-13-2014 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #27
    Player
    Mutemutt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    339
    Character
    Mumuki Muki
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Goldsmith Lv 60
    So I started using targetting macros as soon as I started doing 8-man content. Trying to essentially tab my way through the party just got really tiresome and felt ridiculously slow. Still my solution is a little different, I'm pretty sure I mentioned it at least a little bit in another thread, but I essentially 5 targeting macros. That's enough to target anyone in the party with 1 or 2 clicks. It doesn't exactly solve the "claw" problem for me because my macros are mostly on the dpad anyway, I haven't ran into much trouble with the claw, they could always be moved to the face buttons though.

    I think your idea is interesting but taking up all 8 bars just doesn't work for me.
    (0)

  8. #28
    Player radioactive_lego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    391
    Character
    Adulate Prose
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 52
    Quote Originally Posted by Mutemutt View Post
    ...

    I think your idea is interesting but taking up all 8 bars just doesn't work for me.
    The method I'm using now is a "half-split" version of the one on the OP.

    Basically, instead of one button cycling forward, and the other backward; both buttons cycle forward. One, (O) cycles forward through 1-4, and the other (X) cycles forward through 5-8. This has a few advantages over the OP:
    - Only uses 4 hotbars for player targeting, instead of 8 (thus leaving plenty of HBs for other skills, shared HBs, etc.)
    - A maximum of 4 button presses to target any single party member.
    - No macro or hotbar adjustments for 4 or 8 man parties.

    And retains the following advatages of the OP:
    - Right thumb targeting (no claw).
    - All "hard" targeting.
    - No need to dance hotbars on and off, reducing errors.

    Macro examples upon request.
    (0)

  9. #29
    Player
    INFERNO5150's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    So Cal
    Posts
    13
    Character
    Rikku Ffx
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 50

    :)

    Depending how you have your hot bar set up. The D-pad should be your best friend while scrolling up and down. Personally I have my cure, cure II, cure III, regen on my R2 side with square, triangle, O, X. I saw how your set up was, it's nice but I would just hate for a macro to not go off while healing FCOB
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player
    Charisma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    234
    Character
    Barrie Capdevila
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Artiste View Post
    Yes, this video proof you can play well healer with a gamepad.
    The only thing this video proofs is, that you can play well with a terrible hotbar ..
    Just because you have to dps aswell, doesnt mean its harder to heal, since you still only got to heal 4 People.
    Also 90% of this fight, the healer only heals the tank and barely switched target..
    (0)

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