Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Have I ever said otherwise?

Yes, by constantly claiming it's weaker.

Look, I'm freely granting that Tri-disaster (and Freeze, for that matter) are extremely rarely used. That's true of all binds. T7 was the only place where binding was almost necessary, but it was still useful in Garuda Hard at lower gear levels where the options were to break off from Garuda to kill plumes or die. . .or just bind them and not worry about it.

Yet another unrealistic situation. This also prevents other classes from using specific abilities or spells that would increase their DPS without releasing the feathers.

Yep, the ability to control as well as any two other classes put together isn't a stronger control.

Ninja fits in that same category. Add in the fact that there's no encounter where you need to silence more than twice a minute.

But they both CC, and the healer does it better. The tank does it better, too, but in a different way than either the healer or DPS.

Healers and DPS also both deal DPS. But the DPS deal more damage. With that logic anyway.

Q: Why are tanks usually on stun duty?

A: Because they're better at stunning than the DPS are.

No, The proper answer would be because a tank is always present while another class with an instant stun ability is not always present

Q: Why does the DRG have zero CC contribution to the group?

A: Because the tank does it better.

Q: Why is the DRG doing so little DPS?

A: Because it can't use two of its best abilities without getting in the tank's way. (joke answer: because it's eating dirt)

And this started as Ninja having "inferior" CC. At least you're admitting Ninja's not suffering from any of this like other melee classes are

And yep, BRD can bind a single target on a 40 second CD. Sure, it works better than Tri-disaster in T7, even though neither of them were really needed. But if you need to bind more than one target or more often than every 40 seconds, BRD loses to SMN and BLM (and potentially NIN).

You don't even seem to understand why a Bard's shadowbind works better than a Summoner's, or a black mage's, bind version.

And yes, I keep forgetting BLM. Similar binding ability to SMN, similar heavy ability. . .oh, and a 30s duration AOE sleep that blows most other CC out of the water.

More obsolete CC being brought to the table

After you dragged in tanks to what used to be a DPS vs DPS comparison.

I brought Paladins into the discussion because:

What? No. The day a NIN can solo-silence T2, or solo-stun Ifrit or Levi's add, or solo-bind feathers on Garuda, then I'll believe that it has comparable CC to other classes.

You pointed at it in the first place

And it's nice to see that seven seconds of AOE stuns has no importance. Tell that to the people wiping in Bray.

Actually, yes, AoE stun has no importance. Because scholars can speed run casual content as well

[Maero]

Dragoon buff was needed.
But come on now Ninja nerf already, seriously buffing 1 class and nerfing another that's not at all balancing.
Even if the nerf on Nin is not "big", it still should not happen

[Daweism]

I could have phrased it better. I mean similar to monk when you do not hit the positional from the right position the potency will be lower. 330 potency guaranteed crit is too much.

I don't think 330 guaranteed crit is too much at all in comparison to how much ground DRG have to make to be on par or slightly better than Monks.

[Viridiana]

Yes, by constantly claiming it's weaker.

I also keep saying it's totally serviceable, because this game doesn't feature reliance on CC in most encounters.

Yet another unrealistic situation. This also prevents other classes from using specific abilities or spells that would increase their DPS without releasing the feathers.

That's. . .not an unrealistic situation at all. It's an actual strategy that was used often enough to be recognized around here as a legit strategy. It disables some AOE attacks, but most of the time that's a non-issue in Garuda Hard. Only abilities I can think of that would be routinely affected are Flaming Arrow, Dragonfire Dive, Howling Fist, Circle of Scorn, and Shadow Flare. And while that seems like a lot, remember that it means you can focus the entirety of the group's single target DPS onto Garuda instead of needlessly killing feathers.

Ninja fits in that same category. Add in the fact that there's no encounter where you need to silence more than twice a minute.

Turn 2. If you only needed to silence twice a minute, a PLD, BRD, or NIN could solo-silence. They can't. MNK can, meaning that a single MNK silencer is capable of replacing two other silencing classes. Show me a place where NIN can do that.

Healers and DPS also both deal DPS. But the DPS deal more damage. With that logic anyway.

Have I said otherwise? We're talking about CC capabilities, and I'm pointing out that healers and tanks win by a mile compared to DPS CC. I know that DPS puts out more DPS than the healers do; it's right there in the name.

No, The proper answer would be because a tank is always present while another class with an instant stun ability is not always present

You've clearly never had an Ifrit party immediately disband because there was no PLD, even though there were more than enough stuns present to lock down Eruptions (nevermind that you can just dodge).

And this started as Ninja having "inferior" CC. At least you're admitting Ninja's not suffering from any of this like other melee classes are

I'm admitting that they don't suffer DPS loss when you don't want stuns going out. I'm still saying that their CC abilities are outclassed by the other jobs.

You don't even seem to understand why a Bard's shadowbind works better than a Summoner's, or a black mage's, bind version.

Because it disables auto attack and prevents you from accidentally releasing the mob right after you CC it (or killing the Renauds in T7). Of course, if you break a BRD's bind he has to wait 40 seconds to reapply while a SMN or BLM can try again immediately.

More obsolete CC being brought to the table

Sorry, CC in this game comes in three varieties:

1) Unnoticed because it's irrelevant to the fight.
2) Made necessary by fight mechanics.
3) Used to save a wipe or death.

NIN CC will only ever fall under 1 or maybe 2 if someone decides to let them. BLM Sleep and binds can be used for 3. It's rare, and it means something got screwed up somewhere, but it's still CC. You call it obsolete, but I've seen it used in 2.4, which has been out, what, a month or so? And it was used frequently in 2.2. And, heck, for a while people used it in T5 until SE patched it.

I brought Paladins into the discussion because:

You pointed at it in the first place

You don't remember the start of this conversation, apparently. It's cool, here are the quotes:

We have to choose between the stun or the silence its not like we can do both whenever we want

Able to switch out your poisons between abilities. It's not like Paladin's Oaths where you have to waste a GCD for it.

Sure, you can, but you still only have a silence or a stun on that 30 second CD. It's not like changing your poison resets the CD.

Much like every other DPSs - and even tanks to an extend - CC ability.

Notice how the first two mentions of tanks were from you?

Actually, yes, AoE stun has no importance. Because scholars can speed run casual content as well

Yes, and they do it while using part of their CC: an AOE slow.

[SolarMisae]

Why are we talking about CC in a PvE focused game where all of that is completely useless in 99.9% of endgame encounters? The only endgame encounter where any of their CC would be REMOTELY relevant would be in T9 to silence Earthshock, but there is no other time any of their CC is relevant. Unless you're talking PvP, but like I said in a previous post, this is a PvE focused game and NO balance changes should ever be made based on PvP, not ever.

[Temjiu]

Why are we talking about CC in a PvE focused game where all of that is completely useless in 99.9% of endgame encounters? The only endgame encounter where any of their CC would be REMOTELY relevant would be in T9 to silence Earthshock, but there is no other time any of their CC is relevant. Unless you're talking PvP, but like I said in a previous post, this is a PvE focused game and NO balance changes should ever be made based on PvP, not ever.

I don't think "we" is the appropriate term. More like those two got in a CC argument, specifically Viridiana and Lyrica. not a bad discussion, but probably not needed in this thread.


And I always find these threads fascinating. FotM players crying and opinions flying out the window faster then money during the holidays. Truth be told...it's happening, crying wont do any good, and we'll have to wait to see the changes to know for sure. It will be interesting to see how many people switch classes due to these changes. NIN may lose FotM status on this patch! who will be the next hot ticket for class hoppers? Enquirer wants to know!

[Zaresin]

Why is it people continue to spew the BS that is NiN can out DPS MnKs without backing it up via actual data? I've read every post in this thread and have yet seen any actual numbers. They are all theoretical (even saying mnk's are better than Nin). If someone has any hard numbers from any logs, please post them. Otherwise please sit down and keep quiet. If you feel the need to spout "facts" without the evidence, sit on your hands.

[Vodomir]

Well there is a video of a NIN in full iLvl 110 gear (+115 weapon) who's doing 520 DPS on a training dummy (with group buff and buff food; no other outside help) over the course of ~3 min. This indicates that Ninjas may currently be about on par with MNKs in terms of DPS. But as the exact equipment of said NIN is not known, that parse may probably be the result of full overmelded 110 gear in a low accuracy setup, whereas I've seen MNK vids doing as much as 517 in non-crafted 110 gear (+115 weapon) without group buff or food. So MNK might still be slightly ahead, but not by much.

[Daweism]

Well there is a video of a NIN in full iLvl 110 gear (+115 weapon) who's doing 520 DPS on a training dummy (with group buff and buff food; no other outside help) over the course of ~3 min. This indicates that Ninjas may currently be about on par with MNKs in terms of DPS. But as the exact equipment of said NIN is not known, that parse may probably be the result of full overmelded 110 gear in a low accuracy setup, whereas I've seen MNK vids doing as much as 517 in non-crafted 110 gear (+115 weapon) without group buff or food. So MNK might still be slightly ahead, but not by much.

I'm 114 DRG with 115 Nexus and I do 520 on a dummy with food and party buff, no potions on an 8 minute parse. I'm using mercy stroke though, lol.

[Dervy]

Dragoon buff was needed.
But come on now Ninja nerf already, seriously buffing 1 class and nerfing another that's not at all balancing.
Even if the nerf on Nin is not "big", it still should not happen

Happened to Summoner at launch. Every new class that get's released will always be followed up by adjustments in the next following patch. Happens in nearly every game.