About a PvP-Roulette and the future of PvP in general

[Sanghelios]

Hey guys. I would like to talk with you about the future of ff14's pvp in general.

Daily PvP-Roulette for all PvP contents (WD and FL)
This is a think i really really miss. I think a pvp roulette would be very helpfull to keep pvp alive. Wolfs Den wouldnt be dead anymore because the roulette would just fill up missing spaces. Daily rewards wich could be used in PvE aswell (Latest tomestones for example) could pve lead to pvp aswell. I dont see a reason why square didnt add this to the game.


Will Frontline suffer the same destiny as Wolfs Den? (Or even more worse)
Yes, i think this will totally happen once 2.5 launches. You might ask "Why?" now. Let me explain it to you. There are already achievements for rank 90 in PvP, wich would need a lot more then 1 million pvp exp in total. This means, that future content will just give more and more exp/marks as rewards as older content (Just like a Lvl50 Dungeon gives you more exp then a Level 20 Dungeon). And so on, the new map will most likely be something for around 16 players (Thats what i think). In the next 3-4 weeks after 2.5 launches, every pvp player will just play the new mode, because it will give better rewards and the queue times will be quick. Frontlines will be the victim wich suffers from this situation. During this time, noone or only a few players will queue for frontlines at all, wich makes it very hard to find any frontline match at all. You will see a ridiculous increase of wait times for frontlines aswell. Once this happens, the players will start to think "Oh Frontlines? Noone plays this anymore and the wait times are ridiculous high. I will better queue for the new map because its by far faster and it gives better rewards". Even if there will be some addicted fl-players left (And i am sure this will be the case), once a majority of the player base just thinks a content is dead even if it is still kind of alive, it will die. So if you plan to get your frontlines mount, you better hope to get it before 2.5 launches.

PvP-Endgame Rewards (Gear) will end up being free loot for everyone
This thing really bothers me. Dont get me wrong. I like the idea to help newbies to catch up a bit to endgame, but i dont like the way sqaure goes with this in generel (Also in PvE). PvP-Players can spend thier whole time and afford to get the 100/110 gear, but at some time, Square will just remove the rank restriction from that gear, wich makes a complete animal set obtainable after playing ~10 pvp games in total. So at the end, pvp players will just end up with a unique title and noone cares about it. Why isnt it possible to create 2 sets of pvp gear. The first set is rank restricted and maybe 5 ilvls higher then set two and it is something special (Like the animal gear is now). The other set is not rank restricted (Or only for a specific amount of time), much more obtainable and not special. Following this way, there would be always something a addicted pvp can be proud of while having another set for newbies to catch up.

Ninjas ability to be invisible
I dont have a Ninja and so on, i might cant really judge about this. But in my opinion, being able to be invisible in frontlines or seeing all enemys in a specific area around you is just a step to much. Every class just differs in different attack styles, but no class have such perks as invisible or detect. Just think about to play Halo and one class can use perks while all other classes cant. What can we expect next? The Healer/Tank wich launches in 3.0 have the ability to fly? I already ran in so many situation where i was thinking to get a flag (Because noone was around) by myself, just seeing 3-4 Ninjas comming out of nowhere to kill me.

[Vandril]

@PvP Roullette - Sure, why not? Couldn't really hurt.

@Endgame PvP Rewards - No. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, this implies that every tier of PvP gear will eventually be unobtainable. If not just for glamour purposes, this should never be the case. Who cares if someone else can get it LONG AFTER you do? By then, you'll have something new to work toward.

@Ninja - Also no. Hide is just a class mechanic, like any other. It allows us to get the first hit, but, in that way, it's little different from being a Ranged class and getting the first hit due to hitting the enemy at a range. It also adds a sense of danger everywhere which I really enjoy, because you never know when a Ninja may be lurking. Our ability to Hide is in no way imbalanced, it's just different. Our ability to detect (the actual spell Detect) only effects other Ninjas and removes us from Hide. Our other ability to "detect" other players, Malmsight, is completely useless in every way - all it does is add enemy detection dots to our and our party's minimap for a whopping 15 or so seconds. Also, Bards got Detect as well, so you can't say no other class got it.

Every class has something that differentiates it from every other class, something it can do well that others can't do well or can't do at all. Ninja's Hide is no different from this.

Hide is different and new, you're just not used to it yet. That's all.

Oh, and since you don't play Ninja, also know that Hide reduces our movement speed by half. We move really, REALLY slow while Hidden, just like the Gatherer classes do. So, it's not like the mechanic is just a free bonus; it has a drawback. Also, it can't be used in Combat.

It's possible that Ninjas might need a bit of rebalancing in PvP, but the Hide mechanic is the last place they should consider touching for that.

Lastly...

I already ran in so many situation where i was thinking to get a flag (Because noone was around) by myself, just seeing 3-4 Ninjas comming out of nowhere to kill me.

Then don't run to the flag by yourself. Or be prepared for exactly that. Or, hell, since you're undoubtedly talking about Outpost flags, take solace in the fact that four enemy Ninjas are actually hurting their own team by all sitting at the same usually-empty base when you'd only need one or two of them there.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

PvP Roulette would be a great addition to PvP and would probably improve the overall health of the Ques (for Wolves Den and Frontlines when then new map is released).

For gear progression, I think SE has a pretty perfect system in place for pvp and pve. Higher tier gear gear eventually becomes more commonplace but it opens up opportunities for more casual players that just want to look cool or get geared but don't have the time or desire to commit to a massive / difficult grind. And like vandril said there will be new stuff out that will set you apart from them filthy casuals once the animal gear is unranked.

@ninja if you have a ground target AoE it pops them out of stealth if they get hit. I actually like the extra elements ninjas have added to Frontlines gameplay.

[Nalien]

For gear progression, I think SE has a pretty perfect system in place for pvp and pve. Higher tier gear gear eventually becomes more commonplace but it opens up opportunities for more casual players that just want to look cool or get geared but don't have the time or desire to commit to a massive / difficult grind.

Really? I think they've completely and utterly messed up gear progression in this game. There is no progression, just update trends with the ability to completely skip iLevels. Not that old iLevels should be as hard for new players as they were for me, but they shouldn't be skipped. This is so much more apparent in PvP; Ask yourself, why would anyone ever touch i55, i70, and i90 PvP gear for PvP? They simply wouldn't. Your i100 PvE gear is better. If you have i110 PvE gear that can even rival i100 PvP gear in PvP thanks to the Morale changes. The only PvP gear that really matters for PvP is the new stuff, everything else is unimportant and can be skipped over. This makes the Rank restrictions on Wolves' Den completely unneeded, because Rank 1-40 means nothing, you only need Rank to equip the high end gear, and the only PvP gear which isn't easily replaced by PvE gear in Wolves' Den is the new liege stuff, and that's only because Final Coil doesn't reward everyone.

This game handles progression terribly, instead it has opted to just push players to the newest iLevel as soon as possible. It is an extremely odd move for an MMO to make, too, since long term progression is what keeps people playing. Every update being like Christmas and just handing out high iLevels just gives players less to do, which leaves them with less reason to keep playing...

I'm all for a PvP Roulette, but a solution to this problem really needs to be found before its implementation.

I don't like the idea of a PvP Roulette. Too many issues if it uses Wolves' Den and Frontlines (as you stated), if it was solely Wolves' Den that would be better, but then it only really has two options; Lv30 Wolves' Den and Lv40 Wolves' Den. Anything beyond that would run into Rank matching issues, though Rank matchings really shouldn't be much of an issue with the rework on Morale. It also has people doing Wolves' Den for, in my opinion, the wrong reasons. They're doing it for the daily rewards rather than because it's fun, not that I can blame people for that, since SE made PvP about the gated glamour options...

What I think PvP really needs is a competitive element with actual consequences. Then Wolves' Den acts as a training area and the rewards make sense, while Frontlines and any new content remain the core content due to the implications of a victory or defeat there. Have that an a series of iLevel capped Wolves' Dens for "training", and an uncapped for competitive 4v4 and I think we'd be getting somewhere. Just having Wolves' Den superior for EXP/Marks seems like it would simply make Frontlines irrelevant outside a pony. They need to add some implications to Frontlines first.

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

This is so much more apparent in PvP; Ask yourself, why would anyone ever touch i55, i70, and i90 PvP gear for PvP? They simply wouldn't. Your i100 PvE gear is better.

I think the decision to remove the rating blocks on gear / make gear easier to obtain when new gear is released is to ensure that even casual players will have a way of keeping close to the level of hardcore players. And this doesn't actually let people skip over any of the content i.e. they're gona have kill all their HM Primals before they do their EX Primals, their first coil before their second etc. etc.

For PvP specifically, since Frontlines is ilvl synced and Wolves Den is seldom played, PvP gear is all about the vanity (until they add ranked ques with brackets or something to that effect). So in that sense, yeah the progression is pretty bad but it doesn't bother me much.

[Vandril]

I just remembered a con to the idea of a PvP Roulette that someone brought up last time it was suggested and thought I'd bring it up here.

If a PvP Roulette including Frontlines and Wolves' Den were added, you would only ever get Wolves' Den. Since Wolves' Den only requires 4 people, the moment a tank, a healer, a melee DPS, and a ranged DPS queue up for the roulette, Wolves' Den would pop. This would result in lots of Wolves' Den pops due to the abundance of tanks and melee and ranged DPS, and any Frontlines queue pops will be entirely devoid of healers, as the healers would have been popped into Wolves' Den.

I'm all for a PvP Roulette, but a solution to this problem really needs to be found before its implementation.

[Nalien]

Every class just differs in different attack styles, but no class have such perks as invisible or detect.

Last I checked, only Scholar and White Mage could heal efficiently in Frontlines. Second Wind and Recouperate are nice, but they hardly replace a proper healer.

Meanwhile, before Ninja came out I used basically every Job to scout and take enemies by surprise. Hide really helps in that regard, but it is hardly a requirement. When Frontlines released, I was the Marauder who hide behind pillars and melted your healers before they even got off their mount. I was the Paladin who'd hide at your outpost and took the flag every time you went mid without being spotted. Scholar running in behind his allied? I was the Bard who used Shadowbind on Eos and Blast Shot to knock the Scholar in before they could react, leaving Eos to unsummon.

Ninja just takes an existing dynamic and does it better. You want to counter against Ninjas? Don't. Solo. Anything. It really is that simple, always have a buddy who can back you up. The only time anyone should be seen solo is a Ninja scouting, or a tank holding a flag, and that tank should have a Ninja buddy because baiting people like that is an excellent strategy.