SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[Ultimatecalibur]

<Gear concepts that actual have serious problems.>

I'm sorry, but what you are describing is just as problematic as the current situation. A low level piece that stays BiS through out most of the game means that said piece is far to good and therefore the gear in that slot is imbalanced. Once you have that piece you have no need to get any other piece in that slot unless a new piece that is Better becomes available.

What there needs to be more of is actively performed content where max ilevel gear is not necessarily BiS or near-BiS and itemization for BiS is not the same. For example, BiS and near-BiS in FCoB is not the same a BiS and near-BiS for i80 Frontlines. Many BiS and near-BiS pieces in i80 Frontlines are not i130, but all FCoB BiS and near-BiS pieces are i130. This creates a situation where a player active in both sets of content ends up with multiple gear sets containing mostly different pieces.

[Zarzak]

IDK about you but too simple is just patronizing, like the movie industry. There is a joy in simplicity, like a Mario game you return too cause its the simplicity thats enjoyable... but eventually, I'd like to see something more complex, as when you have a brain, simple things only amuse you for so long. It doesn't need to be overly complex and crazy like what xatsh mentioned cause as you said, its not XI, and theres no gear swaps, so it would be difficult and annoying to gear for specific mods on specific abilities... but... something other than Main Stat, VIT, Kthx would be a solid middle ground.

And as far as content complexity... theres only so many ways to raid a boss :\/

And thats not Game Design 101, there are plenty of games out there that are quite successful even though there is a real complexity to it. I mean, for all the bad rep D&D gets for being nerdy, that game, even though not a Video game, is still one of the most popular things out there right now... and thats complex as shit in some fields. Card battle games like Magic the Gathering and such have a lot more depth than most people would know... also wildly popular, and while I can't name any video games directly off the top of my head, I know they exist... It doesn't have to be so complex that I need a Math degree to figure it out, but seriously how complex is "Critical hit Damage +3%" or "Fire Spell Potency +10"?

^ This person gets it. BlaiseArath you should check this out...

http://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM?t=1m25s

Has about a 3 minute blurb about the dumbing down of the gaming industry. Also amusing as hell.

[Velhart]

^ This person gets it. BlaiseArath you should check this out...

http://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM?t=1m25s

Has about a 3 minute blurb about the dumbing down of the gaming industry. Also amusing as hell.

That has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. He is pointing out that mechanics are simple enough to learn on your own without the need of a tutorial guiding you.

[Kiara]

You're bringing in needless hyperbole in an attempt to make a point. Secondary stats have always existed in the context of RPGs, and the key has been to balance stuff in such a way that you don't have one stat to rule them all (the way Haste did in FFXI). The other key point is making stuff not mandatory outside of what is the context of your job.

Duelle,

You seem to be happy with the limited stats we have now. Is it easier to balance than if we had additional stats? Of course.

But at least for me (and various people in this thread), the itemization is very predictable and boring. I'm glad you like it, but I'm leaving my feedback that I'd like to see more than just the same pattern of "+VIT, + [Main Stat]" for every single new gear set as the gear grind continues.

The game feels very basic and boring in many ways because of it.

He's simplified the combat in this game, removed Party Combos, simplified stats, etc. to try and ensure balance but I feel (just my opinion) that he's stripped away the soul of the game as well. It feels very calculated and he relies on silly Team Jump Rope / Gimmicks encounter design to compensate. Again, some people like this, others don't.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to start with a clean foundation (and as few variables as possible), but his approach seems to have gone too far in that simplified direction. Square's Design department have created decades worth of fantastic RPG systems and itemization (granted most of them for single player games), but there are great ideas there and they've had plenty of post-mortems after development as well to learn from.

[Velhart]

snip

Rather have something boring that works and stays balanced against something interesting that does nothing but cause controversy and more imbalance every patch. But hey, that is just me.

[Ultimatecalibur]

It doesn't have to be so complex that I need a Math degree to figure it out, but seriously how complex is "Critical hit Damage +3%" or "Fire Spell Potency +10"?

The benefit from "Critical hit Damage +3%" varies heavily with Critical hit rate and current Critical hit damage percentage. At 50% critical hit chance and +50% base Critical hit Damage it is a 1.2% increase in average damage, but only a .25% increase in damage with a 10% and +200% Critical hit damage. "Fire Spell Potency +10" may sound simple but has varying effects based on when, where, what and how it is applied.

Its not complexity that is the problem, but Balance.

[Delily]

Duelle,

You seem to be happy with the limited stats we have now. Is it easier to balance than if we had additional stats? Of course.

But at least for me (and various people in this thread), the itemization is very predictable and boring. I'm glad you like it, but I'm leaving my feedback that I'd like to see more than just the same pattern of "+VIT, + [Main Stat]" for every single new gear set as the gear grind continues.

The game feels very basic and boring in many ways because of it.

He's simplified the combat in this game, removed Party Combos, simplified stats, etc. to try and ensure balance but I feel (just my opinion) that he's stripped away the soul of the game as well. It feels very calculated and he relies on silly Team Jump Rope / Gimmicks encounter design to compensate. Again, some people like this, others don't.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to start with a clean foundation (and as few variables as possible), but his approach seems to have gone too far in that simplified direction. Square's Design department have created decades worth of fantastic RPG systems and itemization (granted most of them for single player games), but there are great ideas there and they've had plenty of post-mortems after development as well to learn from.

The bold part is important, because MMOs are not single player games. While that much is obvious, the implications may not be. When I play a game like Skyrim, Dragon Age, Planetscape, etc, my actions only effect myself. I can play the game how I want, and designers can offer more compelling customization, more intricate battle systems, and more varied itemization because the focus is on a single player.

MMOs, on the other hand, have become graphical spreadsheets. Customization is an illusion since people will crunch the numbers, determine the optimal setup, and people will follow suit, because people want to be efficient as possible when it comes to running content. Also, the more complex the system, as you mentioned, the harder it is to balance a game. It's not interesting, but keeping itemization and customization simple reduces the churn on an individual level and lets the designers focus on more compelling content (in theory).

With that in mind, the comment of the game being "boring and basic" speaks to a much larger issue within the MMO genre itself. I think a good article on it can be found here: http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf.

I think the issue here is that FFXIV is aiming to be a story driven MMO, and it succeeds for the most part; the main questline pulls you through to the hard leveling cap and even a bit afterwards, but then the whole thing falls apart. After that you're left with either leveling new characters, which becomes tedious, or running the gear gauntlet.

[Zarzak]

That has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. He is pointing out that mechanics are simple enough to learn on your own without the need of a tutorial guiding you.

No.. he is pointing out that the gaming industry assumes everyone is mentally handicapped and needs their hand held through every single thing. Making fights DDR levels because how would people ever learn if it isn't perfectly predictable. Hand holding you through every stage of leveling by having you follow yellow ! points. etc etc.

If that went over your head then maybe they are right.. And that is a sad sad thing.

[Delily]

No.. he is pointing out that the gaming industry assumes everyone is mentally handicapped and needs their hand held through every single thing. Making fights DDR levels because how would people ever learn if it isn't perfectly predictable. Hand holding you through every stage of leveling by having you follow yellow ! points. etc etc.

Are you familiar with Scott Jennings, a.k.a Lun the Mad? If not, I'd recommend looking him. Sadly, I can't give you a direct reference to his article, but he wrote something that is pertinent to this. Basically, players will cry about how much they want difficulty, and how truly boring the current encounters are. The reality is the more challenging something is, the fewer people will actually attempt. Obviously, this will appeal to a certain type of player, but that type is definitely not the majority, despite appearances. I mean, what do you want? Bosses that have learning algorithms? Do you know that result in bosses simply using the strongest attack available on the healers to wipe the raid? That will pretty much mean no one will ever fight that boss.

The truth is that if only 5% of your player-base can reasonably expect to run the current content, that's a whole lot of wasted resources.

On that note, I find it amusing that the "hardcore raiders" are complaining that this game is not challenging enough. The designers were, and are, very clear the game is currently aimed at newer players and "filthy casuals". What exactly were you expecting?

The reality is that this "garage band syndrome". WoW essentially proved that MMOs don't have to be niche products that measure subscriptions in terms of tens of thousands, or ever hundreds of thousands. The "veteran MMO gamer" that is referred to in your signature may not like that, but seriously, this is a business, the point is to make money.

[Velhart]

snip

I don't think you got the point of the video. Its all about hand holding a player through a game with tutorials. Making systems easy to understand is -not- holding a person's hand. The point he is illustrating that people can figure out how to play Mega Man without a tutorial, because it's concepts are simple enough you don't need something to guide you. Whereas a modern game, text or an NPC will talk to you and straight out tell you how to do something, when the gameplay itself should be the tutorial. You are in fact talking about two completely different things.