SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[polyhedral]

More 24 man raids, less 4 man dungeons. Let the new people learn ffs. You yourself had to learn at sometime in this game.

You can't learn T9 when you're getting kicked out for not knowing it yet.

[Teryaani]

Except you will see it one day because SE goes out of their way to nerf content into the ground after 6 months for players like that

Maybe some, but you'll still see a goodly number of players ignoring it altogether. I'm failing to see why having a mix of 4/8/24 player content is so evil.

[Prototype909]

Maybe some, but you'll still see a goodly number of players ignoring it altogether. I'm failing to see why having a mix of 4/8/24 player content is so evil.

Because for the people who can clear the highest level 8 content everything else becomes irrelevant. The people who are forced to wait will always have more to look forward to down the road as content is eased but for people on the cutting edge you have that one thing and everything that is released between that and the next "one thing" is going to be suboptimal or at least graded against how relevant it is compared to Coil (Look at Ramuh EX on release before the iLvl change). The difference in perspective creates an entirely different experience for different groups of players, a casual player probably doesn't care about Coil because they aren't clearing it. A raid-focused player doesn't care about anything else except Coil because everything else is inferior and unless you care about vanity there's no need to touch anything else. The only way they can fix it is by adding more options at every level, but for whatever reason anytime you suggest adding more end-game raids people say that those people should be content with their one set of Coil instances and don't deserve anything else - yet nobody has a problem with adding 3 more faceroll dungeons every major patch which are only relevant for getting tomes.

[Teryaani]

Because for the people who can clear the highest level 8 content everything else becomes irrelevant. The people who are forced to wait will always have more to look forward to down the road as content is eased but for people on the cutting edge you have that one thing and everything that is released between that and the next "one thing" is going to be suboptimal or at least graded against how relevant it is compared to Coil (Look at Ramuh EX on release before the iLvl change). The difference in perspective creates an entirely different experience for different groups of players, a casual player probably doesn't care about Coil because they aren't clearing it. A raid-focused player doesn't care about anything else except Coil because everything else is inferior and unless you care about vanity there's no need to touch anything else. The only way they can fix it is by adding more options at every level, but for whatever reason anytime you suggest adding more end-game raids people say that those people should be content with their one set of Coil instances and don't deserve anything else - yet nobody has a problem with adding 3 more faceroll dungeons every major patch which are only relevant for getting tomes.

I get your point of view, but I'm going to stop taking you seriously if you seriously believe that last sentence. This is not a game built solely for one play style.

This isn't about "deserving" anything. Progression raiders don't add anything more to Square's bottom line than a casual or pvp-focused player does. SE tries to balance new content among it's three main bases (Story/Endgame/PVP) and it's not entirely successful, I'll grant, but it's not that it isn't trying.

You say that nobody has a problem with the dungeons being added? I'd say, judging by the posts from the folks above (your's included), that you're wrong.

[Zarzak]

No, we'd just point out that older MMOs were grindy too, and perhaps you should wipe the rose color off of your glasses.

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

That is called telling a lie.

Do tell. This should be a good read.

[Teryaani]

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but for me to believe a word of that, you'll need to quantify how they're less. The mechanisms in Everquest/WoW and the like were the same pain points (and in many cases, much much worse than those) we feel in FFXIV. First off, what MMO are you talking about?

[Zarzak]

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but for me to believe a word of that, you'll need to quantify how they're less. The mechanisms in Everquest/WoW and the like were the same pain points (and in many cases, much much worse than those) we feel in FFXIV. First off, what MMO are you talking about?

EQ and WoW are literally the 2 opposite ends of the spectrum so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

Never stated FFXIV specifically. I said modern MMOs. XIV takes the unique approach of just not having anything.

The trend of Modern MMOs....

Solo 1000000 yellow ! points to hit level cap.

Do dailies every day until they release more dailies to do every day.

-Grind 2000 different factions (usually done via the dailies)

Grind your weekly quota of currency (via the exact same dungeons populated exactly the same every time with the exact same bosses positioned in exactly the same way)


As I said XIV avoids some of these. (Not forcing beast tribes for the most part which is the dailies/factions of XIV). The lovely yellow ! mark solo grind WoW made popular is here in force as well as those fantastic dungeon instances.

Older MMOs (EQ and XI being the largest) you rarely ever do the same thing 2 days in a row. Hell even if you did return to the same location it would change due to degrees of randomness that exist in the open world in most cases.

None of this

"Ok you zone into Wandering Palace and there will be 2 tonberries up ahead, then you turn right and run 50 ft where you will encounter 2 vulchers next to a treasure chest, Then turn left and go up the stairs where a "trap" (because you will be surprised right!?) Will spawn ~8 little bugs. Continue on a couple feet to the next room with 2 birds and a tonberry. Turn left and you will encounter a couple slugs and another tonberry. Continue around the pool to the right and you will encounter a hall with a few slugs and pugils with a few more in the room at the end with a door and a tonberry. Kill these then proceed through the now open door. Surprise! There is a boss up with a battle field all prepared for you. Don't worry he is in the exact same place he was the last 100 times and will be there every time."


I could go on but I think the point is clear. Welcome to doing the exact same dungeon 1000 times for your currency.

Wonder why bots weren't rampant in the older days? Because the randomness factor made it impossible to do anything with a simple "record these series of events" program. These days you could literally set up a full group of bots to do an instance by simply recording a run through then hitting replay. It will happen the exact same way every time.

[Teryaani]

Never stated FFXIV specifically. I said modern MMOs. XIV takes the unique approach of just not having anything.

We're talking about XIV, so to say "Well, maybe not XIV...but maybe" is a bit of a cop out. Also, are you implying that EQ isn't super grindy? I just want it in writing you understand.

The trend of Modern MMOs....

Solo 1000000 yellow ! points to hit level cap.

Quest to gain experience until you cap level. Pretty universal even old ones.

Do dailies every day until they release more dailies to do every day.

-Grind 2000 different factions (usually done via the dailies)

Daily quests are definitely the bane of WoW. Everything is gated by faction rep. Not sure if WoD changed that, but given the full embracing of it that happened in MoP, I'd doubt that it went away entirely.

Grind your weekly quota of currency (via the exact same dungeons populated exactly the same every time with the exact same bosses positioned in exactly the same way)

As I said XIV avoids some of these. (Not forcing beast tribes for the most part which is the dailies/factions of XIV). The lovely yellow ! mark solo grind WoW made popular is here in force as well as those fantastic dungeon instances.

That's referring to the questing for experience bit earlier right? Your complaints are that we quest for experience and the dungeons are scripted? As for the dungeon scripting, that's hardly universal to XIV or WoW either.

The variable dungeon thing would be neat and if I'm not mistaken, Yoshi said they would consider adding more randomness to instances. I need to ask though, what does the dungeon being scripted have to do with the grind in this game? Because that sounds like a nice thing to add to a dungeon that you could then run for gear and tomestones. The having randomness in a roulette might make the instance more interesting, or more annoying depending on the nature of the randomness, but you'd still be running it for the reward.

Every game, XI/EQ included have a gear grind. It may be different, but it's there and it still sucks. You like the horizontal grind of XI? Great. No amount of random events and eye candy can change it from being a grind though.

Older MMOs (EQ and XI being the largest) you rarely ever do the same thing 2 days in a row. Hell even if you did return to the same location it would change due to degrees of randomness that exist in the open world in most cases.

None of this

"Ok you zone into Wandering Palace and there will be 2 tonberries up ahead, then you turn right and run 50 ft where you will encounter 2 vulchers next to a treasure chest, Then turn left and go up the stairs where a "trap" (because you will be surprised right!?) Will spawn ~8 little bugs. Continue on a couple feet to the next room with 2 birds and a tonberry. Turn left and you will encounter a couple slugs and another tonberry. Continue around the pool to the right and you will encounter a hall with a few slugs and pugils with a few more in the room at the end with a door and a tonberry. Kill these then proceed through the now open door. Surprise! There is a boss up with a battle field all prepared for you. Don't worry he is in the exact same place he was the last 100 times and will be there every time."

I'm not doing the same routine every day in this game. If we were talking about WoW, this argument would be damning and well deserved because faction rep was king. There's a reason I left WoW and no amount of garrison candy and ogre pinatas could bring me back (I do miss that pinata though).

You dropped back to the randomness though, which doesn't have to do with the grind. Could there be more open world events? Yeah, that'd be cool. Same with dungeons. More events, I want those, but those can be in place and still have the systems we have now. The hunts, as bemoaned as they were, were a good thing in the long run. They are a step in adding random things to the open world that aren't FATES.

I could go on but I think the point is clear. Welcome to doing the exact same dungeon 1000 times for your currency.

Hyperbole is hyperbole.

Wonder why bots weren't rampant in the older days? Because the randomness factor made it impossible to do anything with a simple "record these series of events" program. These days you could literally set up a full group of bots to do an instance by simply recording a run through then hitting replay. It will happen the exact same way every time.

You're jumping topics. Last time I checked we were talking about MMO x being less grindy than MMO y. Not bots.

Also, those bots are a side effect of more than just a scripted dungeon. They're a side effect of better automation software and better computing power. They're in your classic games too, it's just not as profitable for them there. Its the same reason virus writers and script kiddies attack windows and MacOS, that's where the bulk of users are and that's where the most gains can be made.

You're assuming the mechanics operate the same on every boss the same way every time. They don't. Try running snowcloak with a blindfold on as was suggested earlier. It will end poorly.

Those bots are designed as a brute force tool. They keep rezzing and restarting until it goes down. The same thing happened with farming bots in WoW. Head to the dungeons in Northrend and you'll see the paladin keep running at the entrance until it lets him in. Then it proceeds to go until it dies, rez at the door, and try again. This isn't a precision tool. The bot argument doesn't help your "it's the same dungeon every time" argument.

[Duelle]

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

No one would deny that modern MMOs aren't grindy. What I will say is that modern MMOs are better at hiding the grind because they give you context and objectives for the grind instead of throwing you out there and having you kill the same mob over and over ad nauseam to get anything done.

So you're hailing something that has no context with a tendency to drive a normal person to tears as better than something that has context and an objective built in with clear labels for progression and a reward at the end that more often than not is reasonable for the time spent (Atma grinds notwithstanding). And then you say you don't have rose-colored goggles on.

Det, Crit, Acc, Skill or Spell Speed; these(for the most part) are the only stats you ever get to play around with, and after 3 Coils worth of BiS set making I've lost most of my interest.

Ignoring the fact that gear swaps broke too many things about FFXI to count, would you rather we have extra stats that will eventually have to be removed to keep class performance balanced and because item budgets were getting too big for the amount of power the devs wanted players to have? It ain't much better.

I try WoW for the first time yesterday and I am so surprised they have so much element like race stat and traits and nature element all those stuff... Compare ffxiv i say they are too slack on it is like 1% compare to wow if they want to keep the interest any long they need to add fire water earth and wind as a new gear stat and make it huge different in the future

Elemental resistances in WoW are not any more useful than ours. The only difference was that at one point you had classes with abilities that could enhance elemental resistances (paladins with their auras, shaman with their resistance totems), and even then that was only useful on specific bosses.

WoW at one point had: Spell Hit (accuracy), Spell Crit, Spell Haste, Expertise (decreased mob's chances of parrying and dodging your attacks), Ranged Crit, Hit Rating (AkA accuracy), and Healing Spellpower. ALL of those are gone, either blended into main stats or simply removed from the game.

Blizzard has fumbled around with additional stats before, and what they're doing with WoD is no different (I have a feeling stuff like multistrike will come back and bite them in the ass in the future).

[Garlyle]

I try WoW for the first time yesterday and I am so surprised they have so much element like race stat and traits and nature element all those stuff... Compare ffxiv i say they are too slack on it is like 1% compare to wow if they want to keep the interest any long they need to add fire water earth and wind as a new gear stat and make it huge different in the future

Elemental resistance as a gear stat is awkward.
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around having it, players are forced to grind and carry a lot more gear to adapt to the "solution" for each fight. (This is a valid avenue of design - but Yoshida's specifically stated he doesn't want players forced to deal with this)
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around not having it, it trivializes stuff.
If it's not powerful... we're at where we are in XIV where it might as well not be there because it's a trap stat.