SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[Janhyua]

Det, Crit, Acc, Skill or Spell Speed; these(for the most part) are the only stats you ever get to play around with, and after 3 Coils worth of BiS set making I've lost most of my interest.

I also played FFXI for years and what kept me interested was the gear and the stats you could play around with and gear swap for different situation, it was fun lol.

This game is too simple to play long term, the only thing you're going to miss if you quit is the people you played with.

I try WoW for the first time yesterday and I am so surprised they have so much element like race stat and traits and nature element all those stuff... Compare ffxiv i say they are too slack on it is like 1% compare to wow if they want to keep the interest any long they need to add fire water earth and wind as a new gear stat and make it huge different in the future

[Garlyle]

I try WoW for the first time yesterday and I am so surprised they have so much element like race stat and traits and nature element all those stuff... Compare ffxiv i say they are too slack on it is like 1% compare to wow if they want to keep the interest any long they need to add fire water earth and wind as a new gear stat and make it huge different in the future

Elemental resistance as a gear stat is awkward.
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around having it, players are forced to grind and carry a lot more gear to adapt to the "solution" for each fight. (This is a valid avenue of design - but Yoshida's specifically stated he doesn't want players forced to deal with this)
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around not having it, it trivializes stuff.
If it's not powerful... we're at where we are in XIV where it might as well not be there because it's a trap stat.

[Kiara]

Ignoring the fact that gear swaps broke too many things about FFXI to count, would you rather we have extra stats that will eventually have to be removed to keep class performance balanced and because item budgets were getting too big for the amount of power the devs wanted players to have? It ain't much better.

WoW at one point had: Spell Hit (accuracy), Spell Crit, Spell Haste, Expertise (decreased mob's chances of parrying and dodging your attacks), Ranged Crit, Hit Rating (AkA accuracy), and Healing Spellpower. ALL of those are gone, either blended into main stats or simply removed from the game.

Elemental resistance as a gear stat is awkward.
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around having it, players are forced to grind and carry a lot more gear to adapt to the "solution" for each fight. (This is a valid avenue of design - but Yoshida's specifically stated he doesn't want players forced to deal with this)
If it's powerful and the game is balanced around not having it, it trivializes stuff.
If it's not powerful... we're at where we are in XIV where it might as well not be there because it's a trap stat.

Hi Duelle, Garlyle,

Good points. For sure having a bunch of extra stats that only cause imbalance or can't be properly balanced would be problematic. I don't need over complicated stats to make a game meaningful. But to your points then:

1. Then why not just have *2* (TWO) Stats for everyone: "ATTACK" and "DEFENSE" and be done with it? That's the true simplification of it all. Those are the 2 more important stats.

Answer: Because it's more *interesting* with different parameters that are related to Attack and Defense.

I think there's a balance to be had overall, and with enough Relevant & Meaningful Stats, we could have more interesting Itemization / Equipment in the game instead of such predictable and limited Gear. The *magic* and interest is taken away from the game since Day 1 of 2.0. Your entry-level Gear is the same as your End Game Gear. It's always the same. And "surprise" guess what your item level 700 Gear is going to be? The same: Always +VIT and +[Main Stat].

Boring.


2. The irony here is that for all of Yoshi P's statements that he simplified 2.0 (and removed the Elemental Wheel) and removed all these other stats was "because of balance," this game has continuously had Balance Problems.

He had to adjust Warrior because it was insufficient. He had to adjust Black Mage (even with No Elemental Wheel) because it was imbalanced. He's now having to adjust Dragoon because of imbalance.

So we still have balance problems even now, with a dumbed-down, oversimplified game, with No Interesting Stats.

I'd rather see more Interesting, Meangingful Stats and more interesting Gear Sets (or other forms of Customization) than the Cookie-Cutter, Gear Treadmill we have now.

I hope things change in 3.0.

[Duelle]

1. Then why not just have *2* (TWO) Stats for everyone: "ATTACK" and "DEFENSE" and be done with it? That's the true simplification of it all. Those are the 2 more important stats.

Answer: Because it's more *interesting* with different parameters that are related to Attack and Defense.

You're bringing in needless hyperbole in an attempt to make a point. Secondary stats have always existed in the context of RPGs, and the key has been to balance stuff in such a way that you don't have one stat to rule them all (the way Haste did in FFXI). The other key point is making stuff not mandatory outside of what is the context of your job.

Relevant Meaningful interesting predictable limited *magic* boring

And so come the meaningless words. Gear is a means to an end. The end being seeing content. You claim balance can exist despite people who have seen examples to the contrary. We're telling you that drinking the cool aid with cyanide in it is a bad idea but you think it'll somehow work out if you do.

2. The irony here is that for all of Yoshi P's statements that he simplified 2.0 (and removed the Elemental Wheel) and removed all these other stats was "because of balance," this game has continuously had Balance Problems.

He had to adjust Warrior because it was insufficient. He had to adjust Black Mage (even with No Elemental Wheel) because it was imbalanced. He's now having to adjust Dragoon because of imbalance.

So we still have balance problems even now, with a dumbed-down, oversimplified game, with No Interesting Stats.

Now you're abusing the word "irony". Since you missed the obvious point, I'll spell it out in a format that you seem to think will drive a point home:

Now imagine what balance clusterfuck we'd have if we had what you call "meaningful" "interesting" stats on top of imbalances that are a result of encounter balance and new classes being added to the game.

WAR's design clashed with what how people were approaching Coil, which is why it had to be changed. People who actually analyzed stuff could also see that in the long run WAR would have run into issues (even the tank forums here agreed that no amount of self healing could ever hope to approach the level of mitigation a PLD had at the time). That's what prompted the change. BLM's got buffed in response to how the class performed versus encounter design (because encounters with mobility elements were pimp-slapping BLMs). DRG's issues didn't really become news-worthy until magical damage attacks in Coil 3 were nearly-killing or one-shotting DRGs in top raid gear in the obvious result of crafter gear having more magical defense than ilvl110 DRG gear.

Mind you, more "interesting" stats would have done absolutely nothing to alleviate the issues these jobs had, as they come from job design vs encounter design. The fact that itemization is straightforward simply makes finding these issues a lot easier, and thus easier to resolve. So to spell it out again: Class design and mechanics don't have anything to do with "unique" stats, and issues/deficiencies would be notably more difficult to pinpoint and resolve if said "unique" stats were part of the equation.

[Kiara]

You're bringing in needless hyperbole in an attempt to make a point. Secondary stats have always existed in the context of RPGs, and the key has been to balance stuff in such a way that you don't have one stat to rule them all (the way Haste did in FFXI). The other key point is making stuff not mandatory outside of what is the context of your job.

Duelle,

You seem to be happy with the limited stats we have now. Is it easier to balance than if we had additional stats? Of course.

But at least for me (and various people in this thread), the itemization is very predictable and boring. I'm glad you like it, but I'm leaving my feedback that I'd like to see more than just the same pattern of "+VIT, + [Main Stat]" for every single new gear set as the gear grind continues.

The game feels very basic and boring in many ways because of it.

He's simplified the combat in this game, removed Party Combos, simplified stats, etc. to try and ensure balance but I feel (just my opinion) that he's stripped away the soul of the game as well. It feels very calculated and he relies on silly Team Jump Rope / Gimmicks encounter design to compensate. Again, some people like this, others don't.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to start with a clean foundation (and as few variables as possible), but his approach seems to have gone too far in that simplified direction. Square's Design department have created decades worth of fantastic RPG systems and itemization (granted most of them for single player games), but there are great ideas there and they've had plenty of post-mortems after development as well to learn from.

[Velhart]

snip

Rather have something boring that works and stays balanced against something interesting that does nothing but cause controversy and more imbalance every patch. But hey, that is just me.

[Delily]

Duelle,

You seem to be happy with the limited stats we have now. Is it easier to balance than if we had additional stats? Of course.

But at least for me (and various people in this thread), the itemization is very predictable and boring. I'm glad you like it, but I'm leaving my feedback that I'd like to see more than just the same pattern of "+VIT, + [Main Stat]" for every single new gear set as the gear grind continues.

The game feels very basic and boring in many ways because of it.

He's simplified the combat in this game, removed Party Combos, simplified stats, etc. to try and ensure balance but I feel (just my opinion) that he's stripped away the soul of the game as well. It feels very calculated and he relies on silly Team Jump Rope / Gimmicks encounter design to compensate. Again, some people like this, others don't.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the need to start with a clean foundation (and as few variables as possible), but his approach seems to have gone too far in that simplified direction. Square's Design department have created decades worth of fantastic RPG systems and itemization (granted most of them for single player games), but there are great ideas there and they've had plenty of post-mortems after development as well to learn from.

The bold part is important, because MMOs are not single player games. While that much is obvious, the implications may not be. When I play a game like Skyrim, Dragon Age, Planetscape, etc, my actions only effect myself. I can play the game how I want, and designers can offer more compelling customization, more intricate battle systems, and more varied itemization because the focus is on a single player.

MMOs, on the other hand, have become graphical spreadsheets. Customization is an illusion since people will crunch the numbers, determine the optimal setup, and people will follow suit, because people want to be efficient as possible when it comes to running content. Also, the more complex the system, as you mentioned, the harder it is to balance a game. It's not interesting, but keeping itemization and customization simple reduces the churn on an individual level and lets the designers focus on more compelling content (in theory).

With that in mind, the comment of the game being "boring and basic" speaks to a much larger issue within the MMO genre itself. I think a good article on it can be found here: http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf.

I think the issue here is that FFXIV is aiming to be a story driven MMO, and it succeeds for the most part; the main questline pulls you through to the hard leveling cap and even a bit afterwards, but then the whole thing falls apart. After that you're left with either leveling new characters, which becomes tedious, or running the gear gauntlet.

[Atomnium]

http://mud.co.uk/richard/The%20Decline%20of%20MMOs.pdf.

Very interesting reading, thanks for the share.
I loved the part where he described relationship between raiders and casual players :

People play MMOs for different reasons which can be characterised as player
types (Bartle, 1996). All of these player types are needed if an MMO is to be healthy.
For example, an MMO with achievers but no socialisers will shed achievers, because
low-level achievers will find that there are no players that they are “better” than and
so leave. Likewise, an MMO with socialisers but no achievers will mean players have
little to do and will leave.

[Sadonix]

I think the issue here is that FFXIV is aiming to be a story driven MMO

If this is the case then I think it's very weird for "story driven" content to be shut down behind the hardest difficulties that is for "good players" only. Last I checked many people still can't get through T5,is this how "story driven" content supposed to operate ? A few MMOs that I have played made it quite clear to seperate the two things at endgame,story and gear progression. FFXIV on the other hand seem to mix them altogether.