SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[Tiggy]

Fun fact about desynth and GC points; Basically their sole purpose in this game is for Crafters, and Crafters are basically just glorified Glamour peddlers months after a Coil update hits.

That's great. It doesn't change the fact the gear has uses.

[Nalien]

That's great. It doesn't change the fact the gear has uses.

For Glamour. Like I initially said.

Also doesn't change the fact that I want gear to be relevant as gear, which such gear plainly isn't at this point. When you obtain gear like Shikaree's Doublet, you do not look at it as a relevant piece of gear, that is the issue I was highlighting. Saying "I look at it as a source of Company Seals" is either a moot point, or further adding to my point.

[Teryaani]

For Glamour. Like I initially said.

Also doesn't change the fact that I want gear to be relevant as gear, which such gear plainly isn't at this point. When you obtain gear like Shikaree's Doublet, you do not look at it as a relevant piece of gear, that is the issue I was highlighting. Saying "I look at it as a source of Company Seals" is either a moot point, or further adding to my point.

How are you defining relevant? Anything that helps a player qualify for current content (Slowcloak/Sastasha/Qarn have an i80 requirement; ST has a i70) is still relevant as far as I'm concerned. It may not be relevant for all players as gear, but why should it be?

Welcome to modern MMOs. And watch out if you point out that modern MMOs are more grindy than older ones (hi currency capping, dailies, total resets every few months, etc) they will have a conniption and explode.

No, we'd just point out that older MMOs were grindy too, and perhaps you should wipe the rose color off of your glasses.

[Kallera]

How are you defining relevant? Anything that helps a player qualify for current content (Slowcloak/Sastasha/Qarn have an i80 requirement; ST has a i70) is still relevant as far as I'm concerned. It may not be relevant for all players as gear, but why should it be?



No, we'd just point out that older MMOs were grindy too, and perhaps you should wipe the rose color off of your glasses.

Funny how you mention that, I had no need imposed by the game to get specific items as a thf or DNC. I didn't get locked out at all in older mmos. I did it to be more of a help to players I was having fun with. Not as a game requirement, and not for a fleeting measure that gets overwritten in short order. Here, not only does the game prohibit you from activities, the players do as well.

Ask this what do I gain from clearing this content that is lasting?

[Teryaani]

Funny how you mention that, I had no need imposed by the game to get specific items as a thf or DNC. I didn't get locked out at all in older mmos. I did it to be more of a help to players I was having fun with. Not as a game requirement, and not for a fleeting measure that gets overwritten in short order. Here, not only does the game prohibit you from activities, the players do as well.

What is this responding to? I'm not sure you're reading was said.

Nalien is stating that the gear in older dungeons is no longer relevant. As in, it serves no purpose for continuing forward in the end-game content. I responded that it is relevant as it helps players qualify for current end-game content (current dungeons and current entry raid). You don't need any of it. There are other paths to the same result outside of those dungeons. The game doesn't force you into those dungeons and it doesn't stop you from playing if you chose not to.

[Kallera]

What is this responding to? I'm not sure you're reading was said.

Nalien is stating that the gear in older dungeons is no longer relevant. As in, it serves no purpose for continuing forward in the end-game content. I responded that it is relevant as it helps players qualify for current end-game content (current dungeons and current entry raid). You don't need any of it. There are other paths to the same result outside of those dungeons. The game doesn't force you into those dungeons and it doesn't stop you from playing if you chose not to.

I certainly didn't need those dungeons on nin, a few runs to st solved that.
But let's say you cleared endgame tomorrow. The bosses roll over and die for you and you friends. Then what? Did you gain anything you didn't gain when you cleared coil the first time? Will you not still be in the same hole and out of the same parties once the next update hits?

[Teryaani]

Edit: Ha! you added to your post. That explains it.

I certainly didn't need those dungeons on nin, a few runs to st solved that.
But let's say you cleared endgame tomorrow. The bosses roll over and die for you and you friends. Then what? Did you gain anything you didn't gain when you cleared coil the first time? Will you not still be in the same hole and out of the same parties once the next update hits?

You didn't, but a player maining ninja would. If you have the ability to run ST on a relatively geared monk (ideal as they share ST gear and you can need on the drops), then you can gear NIN quickly. But new players can't do that. I've been able to leverage an existing 50 to get gear for my alternate classes, this applies to the experience of a character without that luxury. That's who square has to plan for. So that gear is absolutely still relevant. Not for you or I necessarily, but definitely for a fresh 50.

To your endgame comment, No, you aren't in the same hole. Assuming you've farmed that content for gear, you are already positioned for the new content. Any players coming up the gear ladder have a slog in front of them that you don't. That's what keeps progression players farming the content.

[Zarzak]

No, we'd just point out that older MMOs were grindy too, and perhaps you should wipe the rose color off of your glasses.

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

That is called telling a lie.

Do tell. This should be a good read.

[Teryaani]

Still play.. So sorry no rose color here. They are grindy. Modern MMOs are MORE grindy.

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but for me to believe a word of that, you'll need to quantify how they're less. The mechanisms in Everquest/WoW and the like were the same pain points (and in many cases, much much worse than those) we feel in FFXIV. First off, what MMO are you talking about?

[Zarzak]

You'll have to forgive my skepticism, but for me to believe a word of that, you'll need to quantify how they're less. The mechanisms in Everquest/WoW and the like were the same pain points (and in many cases, much much worse than those) we feel in FFXIV. First off, what MMO are you talking about?

EQ and WoW are literally the 2 opposite ends of the spectrum so I'm not sure where you are going with that.

Never stated FFXIV specifically. I said modern MMOs. XIV takes the unique approach of just not having anything.

The trend of Modern MMOs....

Solo 1000000 yellow ! points to hit level cap.

Do dailies every day until they release more dailies to do every day.

-Grind 2000 different factions (usually done via the dailies)

Grind your weekly quota of currency (via the exact same dungeons populated exactly the same every time with the exact same bosses positioned in exactly the same way)


As I said XIV avoids some of these. (Not forcing beast tribes for the most part which is the dailies/factions of XIV). The lovely yellow ! mark solo grind WoW made popular is here in force as well as those fantastic dungeon instances.

Older MMOs (EQ and XI being the largest) you rarely ever do the same thing 2 days in a row. Hell even if you did return to the same location it would change due to degrees of randomness that exist in the open world in most cases.

None of this

"Ok you zone into Wandering Palace and there will be 2 tonberries up ahead, then you turn right and run 50 ft where you will encounter 2 vulchers next to a treasure chest, Then turn left and go up the stairs where a "trap" (because you will be surprised right!?) Will spawn ~8 little bugs. Continue on a couple feet to the next room with 2 birds and a tonberry. Turn left and you will encounter a couple slugs and another tonberry. Continue around the pool to the right and you will encounter a hall with a few slugs and pugils with a few more in the room at the end with a door and a tonberry. Kill these then proceed through the now open door. Surprise! There is a boss up with a battle field all prepared for you. Don't worry he is in the exact same place he was the last 100 times and will be there every time."


I could go on but I think the point is clear. Welcome to doing the exact same dungeon 1000 times for your currency.

Wonder why bots weren't rampant in the older days? Because the randomness factor made it impossible to do anything with a simple "record these series of events" program. These days you could literally set up a full group of bots to do an instance by simply recording a run through then hitting replay. It will happen the exact same way every time.