SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[BlaiseArath]

IDK about you but too simple is just patronizing, like the movie industry. There is a joy in simplicity, like a Mario game you return too cause its the simplicity thats enjoyable... but eventually, I'd like to see something more complex, as when you have a brain, simple things only amuse you for so long. It doesn't need to be overly complex and crazy like what xatsh mentioned cause as you said, its not XI, and theres no gear swaps, so it would be difficult and annoying to gear for specific mods on specific abilities... but... something other than Main Stat, VIT, Kthx would be a solid middle ground.

And as far as content complexity... theres only so many ways to raid a boss :\/

And thats not Game Design 101, there are plenty of games out there that are quite successful even though there is a real complexity to it. I mean, for all the bad rep D&D gets for being nerdy, that game, even though not a Video game, is still one of the most popular things out there right now... and thats complex as shit in some fields. Card battle games like Magic the Gathering and such have a lot more depth than most people would know... also wildly popular, and while I can't name any video games directly off the top of my head, I know they exist... It doesn't have to be so complex that I need a Math degree to figure it out, but seriously how complex is "Critical hit Damage +3%" or "Fire Spell Potency +10"?

[Velhart]

snip

There are plenty of ways to create a raid boss outside of what is given to us now. Can look at WoW for example that a lot of their raid bosses go beyond the simple circular room with one boss in it. Things like the airship fight in Icecrown Citadel come to mind.

It is Game Design 101 if your main target audience is a broad one. If your base design is for the intent of the mechanics to be the challenge of the game, like Dungeons and Dragons or Magic The Gathering, then that is fine, but you can't expect your target audience to work with that. To this day I can't even really play either of them because the rule set and mechanics are so complex that I do not feel like dealing with them. Depth can be found in simplicity, you can look at Chess for example. Chess has a very basic rule set and only need to take a few minutes to learn what each piece does, but anyone knows it has much more depth to it. Super Mario Bros. itself, extremely simple in design, but how many have ever beaten The Lost Levels? Let the mechanics be simple, and let the depth of content do the work. WoW did not get to where it is today just because of the Warcraft name and marketing.

Things like "Critical Hit Damage +3%" is fine. I'm not against gear sets giving set bonuses like this because ultimately it does not affect how the system in place now works. The only issue is you have to consider how it is worked into the balance. If you have a piece of gear with "Fire Spell Potency +10", it can potentially break balance in both gear and abilities on BLM, then we face a situation where raids will only take BLM's in. Or how it is going to be compared to another full set of the same ilvl. So in that case, they would have to rework for example how Ironworks balances out with Dreadwyrm. This is why SE is so hesitant on creating this. Like I said, I am for it if it is done right, but like the devs, I ultimately care about balance, and if it is something that does not work, then don't bother.

[Zarzak]

IDK about you but too simple is just patronizing, like the movie industry. There is a joy in simplicity, like a Mario game you return too cause its the simplicity thats enjoyable... but eventually, I'd like to see something more complex, as when you have a brain, simple things only amuse you for so long. It doesn't need to be overly complex and crazy like what xatsh mentioned cause as you said, its not XI, and theres no gear swaps, so it would be difficult and annoying to gear for specific mods on specific abilities... but... something other than Main Stat, VIT, Kthx would be a solid middle ground.

And as far as content complexity... theres only so many ways to raid a boss :\/

And thats not Game Design 101, there are plenty of games out there that are quite successful even though there is a real complexity to it. I mean, for all the bad rep D&D gets for being nerdy, that game, even though not a Video game, is still one of the most popular things out there right now... and thats complex as shit in some fields. Card battle games like Magic the Gathering and such have a lot more depth than most people would know... also wildly popular, and while I can't name any video games directly off the top of my head, I know they exist... It doesn't have to be so complex that I need a Math degree to figure it out, but seriously how complex is "Critical hit Damage +3%" or "Fire Spell Potency +10"?

^ This person gets it. BlaiseArath you should check this out...

http://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM?t=1m25s

Has about a 3 minute blurb about the dumbing down of the gaming industry. Also amusing as hell.

[Velhart]

^ This person gets it. BlaiseArath you should check this out...

http://youtu.be/8FpigqfcvlM?t=1m25s

Has about a 3 minute blurb about the dumbing down of the gaming industry. Also amusing as hell.

That has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. He is pointing out that mechanics are simple enough to learn on your own without the need of a tutorial guiding you.

[Zarzak]

That has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. He is pointing out that mechanics are simple enough to learn on your own without the need of a tutorial guiding you.

No.. he is pointing out that the gaming industry assumes everyone is mentally handicapped and needs their hand held through every single thing. Making fights DDR levels because how would people ever learn if it isn't perfectly predictable. Hand holding you through every stage of leveling by having you follow yellow ! points. etc etc.

If that went over your head then maybe they are right.. And that is a sad sad thing.

[Delily]

No.. he is pointing out that the gaming industry assumes everyone is mentally handicapped and needs their hand held through every single thing. Making fights DDR levels because how would people ever learn if it isn't perfectly predictable. Hand holding you through every stage of leveling by having you follow yellow ! points. etc etc.

Are you familiar with Scott Jennings, a.k.a Lun the Mad? If not, I'd recommend looking him. Sadly, I can't give you a direct reference to his article, but he wrote something that is pertinent to this. Basically, players will cry about how much they want difficulty, and how truly boring the current encounters are. The reality is the more challenging something is, the fewer people will actually attempt. Obviously, this will appeal to a certain type of player, but that type is definitely not the majority, despite appearances. I mean, what do you want? Bosses that have learning algorithms? Do you know that result in bosses simply using the strongest attack available on the healers to wipe the raid? That will pretty much mean no one will ever fight that boss.

The truth is that if only 5% of your player-base can reasonably expect to run the current content, that's a whole lot of wasted resources.

On that note, I find it amusing that the "hardcore raiders" are complaining that this game is not challenging enough. The designers were, and are, very clear the game is currently aimed at newer players and "filthy casuals". What exactly were you expecting?

The reality is that this "garage band syndrome". WoW essentially proved that MMOs don't have to be niche products that measure subscriptions in terms of tens of thousands, or ever hundreds of thousands. The "veteran MMO gamer" that is referred to in your signature may not like that, but seriously, this is a business, the point is to make money.

[Velhart]

snip

I don't think you got the point of the video. Its all about hand holding a player through a game with tutorials. Making systems easy to understand is -not- holding a person's hand. The point he is illustrating that people can figure out how to play Mega Man without a tutorial, because it's concepts are simple enough you don't need something to guide you. Whereas a modern game, text or an NPC will talk to you and straight out tell you how to do something, when the gameplay itself should be the tutorial. You are in fact talking about two completely different things.

[Ultimatecalibur]

It doesn't have to be so complex that I need a Math degree to figure it out, but seriously how complex is "Critical hit Damage +3%" or "Fire Spell Potency +10"?

The benefit from "Critical hit Damage +3%" varies heavily with Critical hit rate and current Critical hit damage percentage. At 50% critical hit chance and +50% base Critical hit Damage it is a 1.2% increase in average damage, but only a .25% increase in damage with a 10% and +200% Critical hit damage. "Fire Spell Potency +10" may sound simple but has varying effects based on when, where, what and how it is applied.

Its not complexity that is the problem, but Balance.

[BlaiseArath]

The benefit from "Critical hit Damage +3%" varies heavily with Critical hit rate and current Critical hit damage percentage. At 50% critical hit chance and +50% base Critical hit Damage it is a 1.2% increase in average damage, but only a .25% increase in damage with a 10% and +200% Critical hit damage. "Fire Spell Potency +10" may sound simple but has varying effects based on when, where, what and how it is applied.

Its not complexity that is the problem, but Balance.

Please understand, I'm not attempting to be rude, I understand what you're saying when you mention this, so If i sound rude, I assure you its mostly in good humor and nothing else.

A BLM spell going from say 300 potency to 310 isn't causing T13 to collapse and casuals run wild in it, and my critical hits going from 1000 damage to 1030 damage isn't causing the sky to fall or allow my NIN to solo the world. Sorry, but I don't buy the balance excuse. They're MMO designer, Not ignorant children, I'm sure if they wanted too they could easily balance these extra stats. Its not that much of a challenge so long as they look at it in the long term and not the short term.

Gear variety and itemization... These things were not what made 1.0 bad at all. The stats were fine and even though they weren't the general copy paste of WoW, I bet most of you would actually like a stat system like 1.0/XI if you gave it a shot... I mean, if any of you enjoyed Diablo 2 you should understand the basic concept. Heck, even early FF Titles had armor/weapons with high positives for a trade-off like extra damage taken or something. There's nothing wrong with picking the brain of your consumers in a way that makes them feel smarter for figuring something out. We've all got our brains so turned off at this point because we can pretty much assume every new MMO will be the same gear wise.

You'll have your Primary and HP Stat, always important, and you'll have your secondary stats which will mostly be the same priority for every job... and thats it... I'm just not in support of the ever increasing stupification(This is a word now too) of gaming... As I stated before, I'm not supporting gear swapping or needing a math major to figure out which piece of armor is better(though I did enjoy some of these aspects in XI)... but any level of complexity at all would be nice. Don't you guys ever get sick of playing literally the same MMO over and over with just the names changing? Doesn't the exact same copy and paste itemization and gearing system ever get stale to you? I do enjoy playing XIV, but it doesn't mean I like everything about it. The gameplay itself is fun enough (except low level ._. when its just 1212121212121212), but I still wish they would give me more to be excited about each patch.

I mean really, how much excitement can you muster for +4 Primary Stat and VIT?

When people .dat minned in XI, i was legitimately giddy with excitement at all the new gear possibilities they could be adding. Would my THF get a better dagger? Would my SMN get some more Avatar Perp- or some Avatar damage buffs? Will they add new stats? (Like when Quad Attack was added, or Increased Blood Pact potency, or the exceptionally epic Empyrean Armor set bonuses) These sh*t was so exciting to find out, was exciting to see in action... when you compare something like this:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19953/vajra

to this:

http://xivdb.com/?item/9247/Vajra

How can you not feel like you're missing something? You know Bravura, the relic weapon for WAR in XIV? Main stats, etc... in XI it had a hidden effect of dealing double damage 10% of the time, insane Accuracy bonus, chance of lowering enemies evasion on hit, and a unique weaponskill which granted the WAR a 20% Damage taken reduction. These weapons were unique and interesting for a lot of reasons, even sometimes reasons you didn't know about til you got it.

I understand fun is subjective, but what about itemization, in moderation, do you dislike? Are you excited to see new armor released in XIV when you know its just going to be +X to primary/VIT, and if so, why? I'm asking any of you who open object to more variety in armor (not fully horizontal progression, just more variety).

[Deathscythe343]

Please understand, I'm not attempting to be rude, I understand what you're saying when you mention this, so If i sound rude, I assure you its mostly in good humor and nothing else.

A BLM spell going from say 300 potency to 310 isn't causing T13 to collapse and casuals run wild in it, and my critical hits going from 1000 damage to 1030 damage isn't causing the sky to fall or allow my NIN to solo the world. Sorry, but I don't buy the balance excuse. They're MMO designer, Not ignorant children, I'm sure if they wanted too they could easily balance these extra stats. Its not that much of a challenge so long as they look at it in the long term and not the short term.

Gear variety and itemization... These things were not what made 1.0 bad at all. The stats were fine and even though they weren't the general copy paste of WoW, I bet most of you would actually like a stat system like 1.0/XI if you gave it a shot... I mean, if any of you enjoyed Diablo 2 you should understand the basic concept. Heck, even early FF Titles had armor/weapons with high positives for a trade-off like extra damage taken or something. There's nothing wrong with picking the brain of your consumers in a way that makes them feel smarter for figuring something out. We've all got our brains so turned off at this point because we can pretty much assume every new MMO will be the same gear wise.

You'll have your Primary and HP Stat, always important, and you'll have your secondary stats which will mostly be the same priority for every job... and thats it... I'm just not in support of the ever increasing stupification(This is a word now too) of gaming... As I stated before, I'm not supporting gear swapping or needing a math major to figure out which piece of armor is better(though I did enjoy some of these aspects in XI)... but any level of complexity at all would be nice. It would also be nice if they translated "Skill Speed" and "Critical hit rate" into actual percentages instead of large meaningless numbers. I mean really, in a game that values simplicity its stupid that I have to go online to figure out the tiers for these two things. Why can't "Critical Hit Rate" just be a % in your Character screen? "Skill Speed" Could show the % Reduction to GCD as well instead of the stat value.

I mean, seriously, don't you guys ever get sick of playing literally the same MMO over and over with just the names changing? Doesn't the exact same copy and paste itemization and gearing system ever get stale to you? I do enjoy playing XIV, but it doesn't mean I like everything about it. The gameplay itself is fun enough (except low level ._. when its just 1212121212121212), but I still wish they would give me more to be excited about each patch.

I mean really, how much excitement can you muster for +4 Primary Stat and VIT?

I agree with you 100%. Even with more options for stats in Games like Wow it was balanced. Not only that, but players easily knew how much +hit they would need for fights. They could easily see how much crit they have. Even when WoW changed their haste stat to encompass melee, casters, and GCD you still knew exactly how you were effected in those areas.

If you really want to see secondary stats run away with themselves look at this:http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=88239. Even with all of those stats EQ still found a way to balance them. It is possible. Give the development team some credit. This is the type of stuff that they do for a living.

If players are so truly concerned about lack of something to do or progression ask the development team to change something or add something. I know personally, every MMO that I have played since EQ, I have wanted those games to implement some sort of AA system like EQ has. It provides players a pretty extensive way for them to improve their characters beyond just having the best gear that he/she can possibly get. Here is a link to give you a basic understanding, http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/aaskills.html. Last time I checked EQ some 8,000 AA points that players could obtain for each of his/her characters. That sounds like a lot, and it is, however it is something that players there strive for. It is something that keeps players logging in day after day. What do players have to do in this game after they have maxed out on poetics for the week?