SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[Tiggy]

I guess all those people making gear for their friends, desynthing dungeon drops, and getting gc from drops must be hallucinating on some serious drugs then, or your just using hyperbole and acting like it's fact.

[Nalien]

I guess all those people making gear for their friends, desynthing dungeon drops, and getting gc from drops must be hallucinating on some serious drugs then, or your just using hyperbole and acting like it's fact.

Or I'm just using hyperbole as hyperbole and you're continuing to cherry pick. Whatever, I'm done here. You can continue to act as though Seals are relevant long after I've admitted to using hyperbole on that point if you like. Seals and Desynth still don't make gear useful as gear.

[Tiggy]

Even if I did cherry pick something (which I haven't) that doesn't get you off the hook for sweeping generalizations and hyperbole regarding the usefulness of gear. People have expressed usages and you want to keep getting picky and finding reasons to discount it ignoring all the people who do in fact use those items in the ways suggested. The fact remains people do turn in all the gear in the range you mentioned for GC points, and people do desynth that very same gear, and the 110 gear you say is for glamour people do create to both use (Brd body and blm pants 110 crafter are BiS) and to give to friends who are up and coming. No amount of me cherry picking anything you said would change those simple facts when you overall argument is that this gear has no uses except for glamour. Your message is clear, as are my examples to the contrary. No amount of cherry picking a single sentence you said would change anything about my message vs yours.

[Nalien]

Your message is clear, as are my examples to the contrary. No amount of cherry picking a single sentence you said would change anything about it.

You're right, my message is clear. Gear should be used as gear first and foremost. That is the point you're continually ignoring just to parrot the same "BUT ITS USEFUL FOR SEALS" crap. I don't care that it's useful for Seals. The closest this gear comes to being actual gear is a place on your retainer wardrobe for future Glamour use. That is it. That is why I said it's only relevant as Glamour pieces. I honestly have no idea why you're so hung up on a piece of hyperbole.

[Kallera]

Being very careful is nice and all, but a gear treadmill is still a gear treadmill even after bells are applied. At some point the ilvl will get in the way and we'll be back where we started.

[Prototype909]

The problem with 4 man dungeons is that you can't give them higher tier loot than Coil or Tome gear, because that'd be ridiculous but at the same time if you don't give them good loot but make them difficult they become even more of a tedium to run. Restricting the rate at which people gear through the lock-outs is a very conscious design decision on their part, and 4 mans just being huge trash pulls and face-roll bosses is the consequence. They've basically created a system where it's impossible for them to be relevant other than as a vehicle with which to get gear that is independent from what is actually obtained in the instance.

[MageBlack]

I hope they add more emphasis on enhancing your gear to make it stronger rather than replacing gear with more powerful stuff. Cause then the patch will drop (3.0) and we will be replacing all our endgame gear in the first expansion dungeon. and like Kallera was saying, this is going to get out of hand, quickly.

[polyhedral]

More 24 man raids, less 4 man dungeons. Let the new people learn ffs. You yourself had to learn at sometime in this game.

You can't learn T9 when you're getting kicked out for not knowing it yet.

[coldreactive]

More 24 man raids, less 4 man dungeons. Let the new people learn ffs. You yourself had to learn at sometime in this game.

You can't learn T9 when you're getting kicked out for not knowing it yet.

There are some people who hate raids actually. On an MMORPG Request forum, someone is asking for a WoW-Like game, but without huge raids.

[Teryaani]

Never stated FFXIV specifically. I said modern MMOs. XIV takes the unique approach of just not having anything.

We're talking about XIV, so to say "Well, maybe not XIV...but maybe" is a bit of a cop out. Also, are you implying that EQ isn't super grindy? I just want it in writing you understand.

The trend of Modern MMOs....

Solo 1000000 yellow ! points to hit level cap.

Quest to gain experience until you cap level. Pretty universal even old ones.

Do dailies every day until they release more dailies to do every day.

-Grind 2000 different factions (usually done via the dailies)

Daily quests are definitely the bane of WoW. Everything is gated by faction rep. Not sure if WoD changed that, but given the full embracing of it that happened in MoP, I'd doubt that it went away entirely.

Grind your weekly quota of currency (via the exact same dungeons populated exactly the same every time with the exact same bosses positioned in exactly the same way)

As I said XIV avoids some of these. (Not forcing beast tribes for the most part which is the dailies/factions of XIV). The lovely yellow ! mark solo grind WoW made popular is here in force as well as those fantastic dungeon instances.

That's referring to the questing for experience bit earlier right? Your complaints are that we quest for experience and the dungeons are scripted? As for the dungeon scripting, that's hardly universal to XIV or WoW either.

The variable dungeon thing would be neat and if I'm not mistaken, Yoshi said they would consider adding more randomness to instances. I need to ask though, what does the dungeon being scripted have to do with the grind in this game? Because that sounds like a nice thing to add to a dungeon that you could then run for gear and tomestones. The having randomness in a roulette might make the instance more interesting, or more annoying depending on the nature of the randomness, but you'd still be running it for the reward.

Every game, XI/EQ included have a gear grind. It may be different, but it's there and it still sucks. You like the horizontal grind of XI? Great. No amount of random events and eye candy can change it from being a grind though.

Older MMOs (EQ and XI being the largest) you rarely ever do the same thing 2 days in a row. Hell even if you did return to the same location it would change due to degrees of randomness that exist in the open world in most cases.

None of this

"Ok you zone into Wandering Palace and there will be 2 tonberries up ahead, then you turn right and run 50 ft where you will encounter 2 vulchers next to a treasure chest, Then turn left and go up the stairs where a "trap" (because you will be surprised right!?) Will spawn ~8 little bugs. Continue on a couple feet to the next room with 2 birds and a tonberry. Turn left and you will encounter a couple slugs and another tonberry. Continue around the pool to the right and you will encounter a hall with a few slugs and pugils with a few more in the room at the end with a door and a tonberry. Kill these then proceed through the now open door. Surprise! There is a boss up with a battle field all prepared for you. Don't worry he is in the exact same place he was the last 100 times and will be there every time."

I'm not doing the same routine every day in this game. If we were talking about WoW, this argument would be damning and well deserved because faction rep was king. There's a reason I left WoW and no amount of garrison candy and ogre pinatas could bring me back (I do miss that pinata though).

You dropped back to the randomness though, which doesn't have to do with the grind. Could there be more open world events? Yeah, that'd be cool. Same with dungeons. More events, I want those, but those can be in place and still have the systems we have now. The hunts, as bemoaned as they were, were a good thing in the long run. They are a step in adding random things to the open world that aren't FATES.

I could go on but I think the point is clear. Welcome to doing the exact same dungeon 1000 times for your currency.

Hyperbole is hyperbole.

Wonder why bots weren't rampant in the older days? Because the randomness factor made it impossible to do anything with a simple "record these series of events" program. These days you could literally set up a full group of bots to do an instance by simply recording a run through then hitting replay. It will happen the exact same way every time.

You're jumping topics. Last time I checked we were talking about MMO x being less grindy than MMO y. Not bots.

Also, those bots are a side effect of more than just a scripted dungeon. They're a side effect of better automation software and better computing power. They're in your classic games too, it's just not as profitable for them there. Its the same reason virus writers and script kiddies attack windows and MacOS, that's where the bulk of users are and that's where the most gains can be made.

You're assuming the mechanics operate the same on every boss the same way every time. They don't. Try running snowcloak with a blindfold on as was suggested earlier. It will end poorly.

Those bots are designed as a brute force tool. They keep rezzing and restarting until it goes down. The same thing happened with farming bots in WoW. Head to the dungeons in Northrend and you'll see the paladin keep running at the entrance until it lets him in. Then it proceeds to go until it dies, rez at the door, and try again. This isn't a precision tool. The bot argument doesn't help your "it's the same dungeon every time" argument.