SE enough of the treadmill, please make the game more interesting!

[Deathscythe343]

I don't think the grind is really the issue here. I think that it is the reward. Not counting any kind of roulette bonus is takes 12 full runs of a dungeon to max out poetics for the week. Once you have done that what reason does one have to run the dungeon again for the rest of the week?

Now I am not saying that SE should start throwing mounts, and huge sums of gil at players to keep them doing things like dungeons, ST, and coil, etc, however generally the goal is to keep as many people paying to play the game as possible. If players are getting burned out or bored with the number of things to keep them busy from one day or week to the next then it becomes time for the developers to add or create something new that will keep player's interest.

The goal is to make the player want to log in on a daily basis to play the game. They do need something for players to make their characters better beyond just getting the best available gear for them.

[Firepower]

I came across this issue this patch to be honest. I've played continuously since 2.0 open beta and it hasn't been a problem until this patch, I don't really like any of the current jobs, I was kind of hoping that Ninja's release would rekindle some interest although i didn't really enjoy the mudra system so i went back to MNK. I stayed away from coil 2 and will stay away from final coil too as i have no interest in raiding and did every other content available.

Since open beta it has been somewhat like this:

Collect philosophy tomes and i55,i60 gear
Do ifrit
get i55 weapon
Do garuda,
get 2 - 3 pieces of darklight
Do titan
get relic.
--------------
mythology to cap weekly for i90 (grind atma, mythology for animus, novus)
soldiery to cap weekly for i100
hunts for sand for i110 (grind nexus light)
poetics for i120
patch 2.45? grind something else for upgrade to i130 (super grind for next relic level)

I think the point i'm trying to make is that before they started the treadmill it worked quite well farming dungeons for gear to just survive the attacks of the next primal so you could work towards the relic was entertaining and exciting, now the next patch comes along everyone zergs into the next primal wipes the floor with it and then just grinds the dungeons for tomes and trades the dungeon gear to npc for seals. What happened to places like Castrum and Praetorium. Perhaps this will all start over again in the expansion when the level cap is raised to 60. But i am also becoming quite concerned about the relic weapon and the length of the quest to push it to an equivalent patch level item. For instance the ironworks weapons are i120/i130 yes they require a bunch of poetics and a final coil of bahamut drop right now but in 2.45 its likely they will drop that into CT like they did with 2.35. For the relic to be equal to that as a fresh 50 (farming 3rd CT for item + saving poetics) you will have to get crafted relic, ifrit, garuda, titan, soldiery for oil, mist, grind atma, animus books, ink, alexandrite, light and the next grind for the i120 weapon. The treadmill is designed to shortcut fresh 50s up to i100 i110 very quickly now with uncapped soldiery and mass drops in ST but the relic quest just keeps getting longer which eventually will just put everyone except the people already at the highest level from bothering to get one.

[Deathscythe343]

I think the point i'm trying to make is that before they started the treadmill it worked quite well farming dungeons for gear to just survive the attacks of the next primal so you could work towards the relic was entertaining and exciting, now the next patch comes along everyone zergs into the next primal wipes the floor with it and then just grinds the dungeons for tomes and trades the dungeon gear to npc for seals. What happened to places like Castrum and Praetorium. Perhaps this will all start over again in the expansion when the level cap is raised to 60. But i am also becoming quite concerned about the relic weapon and the length of the quest to push it to an equivalent patch level item. For instance the ironworks weapons are i120/i130 yes they require a bunch of poetics and a final coil of bahamut drop right now but in 2.45 its likely they will drop that into CT like they did with 2.35. For the relic to be equal to that as a fresh 50 (farming 3rd CT for item + saving poetics) you will have to get crafted relic, ifrit, garuda, titan, soldiery for oil, mist, grind atma, animus books, ink, alexandrite, light and the next grind for the i120 weapon. The treadmill is designed to shortcut fresh 50s up to i100 i110 very quickly now with uncapped soldiery and mass drops in ST but the relic quest just keeps getting longer which eventually will just put everyone except the people already at the highest level from bothering to get one.

This actually leads to something that bothers me about the relic upgrade. It is the same for everyone. No matter what job you are, you do the exact same thing as everyone else. Now, I understand that this makes things from a development standpoint, extremely easy. However, it seems like that if the upgrade process was more unique to the job one was doing it for, the process itself would seem more rewarding to players. I think back to my days playing EQ and doing my epic weapon quest for my warrior. The process was specific to that class. Sure there was a little overlap at times with other classes, but primarily the quest was totally unique to that class. It kind of makes me thankful that the relic weapon line is coming to an end. I'm hoping things are different with the expansion.

[Teryaani]

For a pure glamour purpose, anything can be interesting, it's a matter of tastes but when it come about worthing gears, right now there is none because they will all be replaced on a (very soon) later date.

Sure, and as of right now, most players that have been 50 for a decent length of time will scoff at that gear as anything other than seals or glamour. The thing is that it can serve the purpose of qualifying new players for ST and the like. I get that XI players really want it to be relevant longer, but the way they're doing progression, it's just a quick stepping stone.

Do you realize that you pointed out the real issue? only a few people re able to get into raids and this is the true problem! And this isn't even the fault of the players, it's the fault of the game iself for tagging every single things that matter to do with huges daily/weekly lockouts, everywhere!!! there is no uses of a free company than having food buffs and co :x because of all the lockouts this game have we re bound to play the game at a very slow progression, the whole weekly token system act like as a fake lure to force your sub going while giving you illusionary feelings of going somewhere
If the game had more raid contents without any kind of lock out than useless / worthless /wasted lv50 dungeon... It would boost the community more in a dynamic way, giving a true meaning of having a FC.

I'm not sure that if you took away the lockouts that you would drive players into raiding. Some folks just can't handle mechanics and won't do it. Is the FC useless? For some. I don't think there are really enough reasons for me to join one. I've got one with my wife just so we can have the garden plot, but otherwise we've done fine without one.

I'm also not sure I'd call the dungeons wasted or worthless. No content stays current forever and it should eventually idle off. SE has opted for 3-6 months for its timer. Is that the right amount of time? No idea. If they keep things relevant longer in 3.0 then we'll know that they didn't think so.

Teryaani,

Just because it is currently a purely Vertical Progression MMO doesn't mean people can't leave feedback to the developers as to what they'd like changed. I'm glad you like the game just the way it is. For me and many in this thread, the Gear Treadmill is getting pretty awful and repetitive.

Never said you couldn't. You should tell them what you want. Honestly? I'd like to see more gear with set bonuses and that seems like it's going to be a thing in 3.0. I get why people get burned on the gear treadmill. I'm not saying you're wrong to feel that way. I've taken more time with this game and stepped away for that reason. I don't want it to become a job and if it starts feeling that way, I step away from it.

And my comment about Lost City's gear is pretty much true for all players after they reach Level 50 and start doing any activities for Tomestones (of the month) or Coil (or future End Game). Even if you skip End Game, and just turn in current Tomestones for gear it is better than the gear in any of the Trash Mob Dungeons being released. It's a fact.

For most of us, lost city is just seals or glamour. Current dungeons are a little better (AF2), I know a few people using those as filler for alts that they didn't get gear for in ST. SE is following blizzard's gear model with the dungeons, which renders them just as that, filler pieces to qualify you for the better content to jump forward.

What I was referring to was that when a player reaches Level 50, they can for all intents and purposes jump straight over and through --> ALL of the "Hard Mode" and other Trash Mob Dungeons and get iLevel gear that eclipses all of that without going to End Game (just with the current Tomestone (flavor) of the month).

I'm saying for all that extra effort the Dev Team put in, they could've adjusted it to be something far more useful for Horizontal Progression or Side Grades. Yes, that involves an inherent change to his philosophy, but he's acknowledged the possibility in his last Fan Fest talk.

I'm not sure how far he'll go with it. 3.0 will be the test of things. How much of the baggage of 1.0 they keep around and how they adjust gear progression. I wouldn't expect them to abandon vertical progression entirely though.

There is a design philosophy that goes along with the decisions they made. I know plenty of people get irked that players jumped past content, I don't. It's still a grind to get there and existing players still have every advantage in the form of already geared alts and already unlocked content.

I'm not saying all dungeons have to be "end game," but he seems to be trying to "retrofit" a gear path into a game that most players don't need.

Fair point. They could have had it be one less dungeon each patch and put that development time toward another full or alliance duty or adding in an open world event.

Then they shouldn't continually half-ass it. Other titles that aren't AAA do full VA just fine. It isn't the obstacle you percieve it to be. F2P titles do it that release content on the same schedule. All things I already pointed out and that anyone can casually observe in a number of titles.

Which games are you talking about? SWTOR? Sure but the patches are slow coming. WoW? Not fully voiced and same cost as this one?

How? Unless they let themselves get petrified you can literally walk away from any open world fight as soon as it becomes evident you bit off more than you can chew. Sight mob are extremely easy to avoid thanks to narrow and short detection cones. Hearing mobs are completely avoidable by walking instead of running and have even smaller detection areas. If you fight a ranged mob you have to start walking earlier but the point stands. There is zero actual risk in any aspect of the open world.

The sylphlands and sapsa for undergeared players is a pain in the rear if you're chain heavied/paralyzed. I'm not saying suggesting it's a common occurrence. You say zero risk, I say you're wrong. Limited risk, but not zero.

Ironic bad attitude aside, the game, official forums, and reddits all abound with people of the mind that "holy $$%^ this community is toxic," and it's almost entirely the result of the game's content being presented in the way it is.

You aren't seeing the toxicity in yourself. The community is toxic, you're part of that community and not helping.

- Instances are glorified standardized testing. Success is graded on how well you've memorized the fight. Toxicity arises when friendly but clueless players join without having watched a video or something, usually.

- Older players grinding tomes have to deal with people wanting to watch up to 40min of CS in some cases, new players watching CS have to deal with rude veterans harping on em or kicking em.

Not all of us do this. Some of us go out of our way to make sure new players get what they need. On WoW it was a lost cause. Here? It's not.

- The only non-casual/social "community" is in the form of statics which mostly renders FCs irrelevant.

I do think that SE has several missed opportunities with free companies that they still can fix (adding more than just 10% buffs to the menu). Right now they scarcely offer more than a LS does.

- Content locks make both static and PF politics toxic. Skilled players flock to statics leaving PF pugs to wallow in mostly less-skilled players, leading to frustration and toxicity.

- Hunt trolls.

Pretty much every aspect of the design lends itself to toxicity and deters actual friendly cooperation and teamwork.

The content locks are problematic. I'm still curious why they didn't go with an ST style loot system instead. Probably they found that the gear progression happened too quickly for their liking. The hunt trolls....Look, many aspects of this game are designed to reduce the chance of being griefed. That's one that still exists. Those players are going to be in any game you play and they are going to find ways to be obnoxious. How to fix it? No idea.

Lrn2read. "Horizontal progression style grind." The vertical grind is stetched out as much as possible. Gear is earned with almost as much grind as one would expect of gear in a horizontal progression system but it's still totally bland vertical progression disposable trash with no real options to speak of. Players pay and play more for less.

"Toxic Community" Got a mirror handy? Say it again and look into the mirror. Being a jackass and then calling the community toxic is lame.

The vertical grind is done over a three month patch cycle. That's stretched out? People talk about horizontal progression with platitudes about having to spend months getting a sword that they then hold onto for 8 months because that's how long it took to get...and the like. If it was truly "the same grind...." you wouldn't be swapping sets in three months.

Lrn2read x2. Pretty easy to comprehend. You can literally play other games or even respond to vapid counterarguments, such is the freedom granted by fishing. It was a bit of a satirical remark, but it's true. At least fishing doesn't try to disguise the fact that it's a shameless time sink and it rewards you an item that's markedly better than anything comparable... not like DoW/DoM gameplay where everything is pretty much on par.

I read it just fine. Claiming "satirical" and then not is nonsense.

[Catsby]

I wish stats were more interesting in this game. Right now every single stat does pretty much the same thing for your job.

[Velhart]

I wish stats were more interesting in this game. Right now every single stat does pretty much the same thing for your job.

What else does DPS want besides stats that increase their DPS or survive an ability in raids? Making stats out of this will just become useless that no one wants to touch.

[Xatsh]

What else does DPS want besides stats that increase their DPS or survive an ability in raids? Making stats out of this will just become useless that no one wants to touch.

Answer make more stats that effect dd attack.

Spirits within. Add a mnd modifier to it or something.

Drk have some int modifiers to weapon attacks.

Make it so it is not. Cap your acc then your main stat for every class.

[Velhart]

Answer make more stats that effect dd attack.

Spirits within. Add a mnd modifier to it or something.

Drk have some int modifiers to weapon attacks.

Make it so it is not. Cap your acc then your main stat for every class.

Sounds complex and pointless. This isn't FFXI. You expect people to gear towards one ability that is used every other minute? Only reason people were able to work with it in FFXI was because you could gear swap, which you obviously cannot do in this game.

Mechanics should always be easy to understand while at the same time offering a learning curve to master over time. Adding in more stats and changing it around needlessly makes things more difficult to understand. Don't forget, they are appealing to a wide audience and not you and your friends. Its like with Ninja going on the DEX stat. SE decided to make the concepts a tad more complex than needed, putting NIN on the DEX stat when they are a melee like MNK/DRG. Instead of keeping things simple with STR = melee and DEX = ranged, they decide to write "Ohh and primary stat for ROG/NIN" in the description. Its a thing, but what does that hold for the future? Will DRK now be on a INT modifier instead of VIT because they use dark magic? Creating -another- gear set specifically for them. Point is, it is pointless, especially with how many jobs we will have ten years from now.

Keep it simple, keep it clean, and let the complexity lie in the content itself. Its Game Design 101.

[BlaiseArath]

What else does DPS want besides stats that increase their DPS or survive an ability in raids? Making stats out of this will just become useless that no one wants to touch.

A few stats could be added that weren't useless...

Critical Hit Damage is an unexplored one many MMOs have.
Reduced Damage taken*
Ability/Trait Enhancing Armor**.

These could all be a "5th stat" so to speak, and not replace our current 4 stats... except maybe critical hit damage. But honestly, I'm surprised Critical Hit Damage isn't in this game yet. I get haste is basically Skill speed so thats not really necessary... Obviously I'm not calling for Gear swap, but just like min-maxing now, these armors could be considered before a Raid begins, and it would be attached as a "Bonus" to endgame armor. I mean, imagine just simpy Soldiery Armor giving you what it does now... but with an extra small boost in place of a 5th stat, like the ones above.

*Like "Magical Damage Resistance +5%" and "Physical Damage Resistance +5%" instead of splitting it up until Slashing/piercing/blunt/etc etc. For a game who favors simplification, all these +1's to random resistances is not... simplified.

**A fair middle ground would be enhancing it but not by "too much". Like say, adding 3-5 Seconds to an attack enhancing ability (enough for 1/2 more GCD)

[Meier]

Well, on JP and this side there is a lot of requests for horizontal progression...I hope the devs hear us and listen ^^