[dev1032] Class uniqueness and Armory System

[Alcide]

First of all I have to say I love the armory syste, being able to fully customize your own character is a great thing, but honestly I think the current system gives the player too much freedom.

For exemple, all of the DD want all of the buffs of every class and they can have them working perfectly fine. This is wrong in 2 points:
1- I'm forced to play not one, but many classes I don't like just for one skill.
2- Every DD ends up with the same strategy, with the same build and using the same skills.

I guess the main issue is that we can equip almost everything we want. Increasing the amount of action points to equip a skill of another class we wont be able anymore to equip everything we like, we'll have to think wisely and chose what it's worth to get and what is not.

Plus I think that the ability to cross class shouldn't be applied to WS. Like how is it possible that I can use Arrow Helix with my lancer? o.O I know this would mean getting rid of the cross class regimen, but honestly they aren't that worth ^^'

[kukurumei]

First of all I have to say I love the armory syste, being able to fully customize your own character is a great thing, but honestly I think the current system gives the player too much freedom.

For exemple, all of the DD want all of the buffs of every class and they can have them working perfectly fine. This is wrong in 2 points:
1- I'm forced to play not one, but many classes I don't like just for one skill.
2- Every DD ends up with the same strategy, with the same build and using the same skills.

I guess the main issue is that we can equip almost everything we want. Increasing the amount of action points to equip a skill of another class we wont be able anymore to equip everything we like, we'll have to think wisely and chose what it's worth to get and what is not.

Plus I think that the ability to cross class shouldn't be applied to WS. Like how is it possible that I can use Arrow Helix with my lancer? o.O I know this would mean getting rid of the cross class regimen, but honestly they aren't that worth ^^'

That's basically the key flaw in the armory system. If x skill is better then y skill, and you can switch y skill for x skill at anytime. The x skill will always be preferred.

There's no experimentation because that only lasts for about 3 minutes. And then Devs get the headache to balance x and y skill in a never ending cycle.

Instant gratification formulas tend to have nasty side effects.

[ChiefCurrahee]

What if equipping abilities and spells cost more action points for cross classing?
for example:
2x the ability points for cross classing under the same discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Lancer)
and
3x the ability points for cross classing outside your discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Conjurer)

This might put a limit on how many skills people use outside of their own class, lending a bit more "uniqueness" to each class in their own right, and allowing people to continue to customize their character.

[kukurumei]

What if equipping abilities and spells cost more action points for cross classing?
for example:
2x the ability points for cross classing under the same discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Lancer)
and
3x the ability points for cross classing outside your discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Conjurer)

This might put a limit on how many skills people use outside of their own class, lending a bit more "uniqueness" to each class in their own right, and allowing people to continue to customize their character.

A possiblity, if carefully managed, though we only have 2 DoM classes and the rest DoW, and DoL has basically no combat skills.

The system itself is horribly mis managed so it would have to come in conjunction with other across the board changes.

Then you need to be careful not to over do it, and basically make no ability cross classing worth it, or the opposite, always worth it. AkA shock spiking for every melee.

[Alcide]

What if equipping abilities and spells cost more action points for cross classing?
for example:
2x the ability points for cross classing under the same discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Lancer)
and
3x the ability points for cross classing outside your discipline (i.e. Gladiator -> Conjurer)

This might put a limit on how many skills people use outside of their own class, lending a bit more "uniqueness" to each class in their own right, and allowing people to continue to customize their character.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Even better, the amount of action points needed should be different from class to class, in example, Lancers amongst the meele are the ones with more MP and more buffing skills so they should spend less ap then the other DoW when equiping a DoM skill; Marauders could be able to tank like Gladiators, so when equiping Glad's skills they should spend less ap then Archers and Lancers.

[Shikyo]

We have seen this discusion over and over the hybrid class system for me makes things bland like the op said it makes every dd and mage seem the same in the end.
I hope they address this one sooner than later. I know i will get attacked for this *sigh* but in xi what i loved was that there was a sense or pride for the class you played and the strategy that came with the sub class system was awesome.
A warrior could have a completly different play style simply by changing his sub this system is amazing i thought and it wasnt over powered because making the subclass capped at 1/2 the main class man perfect.
In xiv everyone is everything now, no one ever asked "what class do you play" because it doesnt really matter. Of all the things that they could try to be all ground breaking inovative this is one i wish they had let stay the same, just this one thing! Since the very 1st ff on nes there has been "ff classes" and in everone after that and i have played them all i mean all. old school ff mystic quest dude what? XD ok sorry to rant or whine w/e tf you wanna call it, i am a final fantasy fan i even liked X-2 *hides* please SE, Mr. Yoshida if anyone is listening to a diehard fan, bring back the classes the real FF fans know and love.
For thoes that wanna attack me for this post go right ahead idc i am a gamer plain and simple i love rpg's and my fondest memories in gaming have been with FF so i have come to expect certain things when i see this name on a box.

[Kimahri]

Although the idea's you are coming up with really do seem plausible, I still believe the only route to take on this matter of Job/Rank Uniqueness would be to keep it within the confines of the job. This theory still has the same flaws of making a job unique. Granted, I'm in favor of making some abilities obtainable through cross matching.

I believe the only way we'll ever reach a level of uniqueness is if most of the abilities of a certain rank stays within that rank. I'm sure you'll agree with me that certain things should never be mixed in between different ranks, for example what Alcide said: Weaponskills. Magic should also stay in their perspective groups. What is the point of having DoM if everyone can use magic? I know it's at a deducted rate, but still, no go. A spell like shock spikes should only be a spell for the enhancer/buffer rank.

Now certain things we can mingle. Now I'm not in tune with all the abilities of the ranks so I'll use old XI terms. Abilities like Berserk, Defender, Warcry, Elemental Seal, Divine Seal, etc were great traits at which you could pass along yet still keep the sanctity of the Job/Rank intact. Only this time instead of a subjob, we obtain these abilities through the ability points we receive.

[Alcide]

I believe the only way we'll ever reach a level of uniqueness is if most of the abilities of a certain rank stays within that rank. I'm sure you'll agree with me that certain things should never be mixed in between different ranks, for example what Alcide said: Weaponskills. Magic should also stay in their perspective groups. What is the point of having DoM if everyone can use magic? I know it's at a deducted rate, but still, no go. A spell like shock spikes should only be a spell for the enhancer/buffer rank.

Agree about the ranks, at first I thought it was really cool and realistic, I mean once you've learn something you don't forget it just because you changed your weapon, but some skills at low ranks can be really op (Invigorate II FTW with every class)

The spell issue I think can be addressed with a better affinity system too. Right now DoM spells performed by DoW are weaker, but still worth to be done, especially when playing solo. IMHO they should enhance the affinity system making it worthless to cast a spell by a DoW class IF they have not certain requirements (affinity+ traits, affinity+ equips, ect).

This + different affinity based on class, not on disciple, would help a lot in the class uniqueness issue, yet would keep the system open to customization.

That's basically the key flaw in the armory system. If x skill is better then y skill, and you can switch y skill for x skill at anytime. The x skill will always be preferred.

There's no experimentation because that only lasts for about 3 minutes. And then Devs get the headache to balance x and y skill in a never ending cycle.

Instant gratification formulas tend to have nasty side effects.

I think is more like "i want this buff, how can i get it? with a, b, c, d, e, f, g,... skills. Can I use them all at once? Yes. I want them all." There are way too many acc+ and atk+ buffs that are almost identical, they absolutely have to address this, cross class should be based around chosing what to equip, right now it's about equiping everything.

[Kaedan]

What if it was changed to something like Tactics?

In Tactics, you could learn skills from any Job you leveled up. HOWEVER, only certain skills could be equipped on your current class (with the exception of Squire maybe?). For example... Cure could be equipped on any Class, but Cure II+ could only be equipped on "Mage" classes or perhaps Gladiator to make a "Paladin-esque" character.

What do you guys think about that?

[Alcide]

What if it was changed to something like Tactics?

In Tactics, you could learn skills from any Job you leveled up. HOWEVER, only certain skills could be equipped on your current class (with the exception of Squire maybe?). For example... Cure could be equipped on any Class, but Cure II+ could only be equipped on "Mage" classes or perhaps Gladiator to make a "Paladin-esque" character.

What do you guys think about that?

I would love something like that *-* I really hope SE take tactics into account when making advanced classes.
They would perfectly fit this game, they would be something new in the mmo scenario (as far as i know...) and they would be totally final fantasy-esque.