So Second Coil has been destroyed

[Taika]

The thing is, people keep talking about the challenge. It's supposedly not even about the loot anyway. Like I said in a previous post, even if two separate versions had been left in, the people crying the most about these changes would still be farming in the "easy mode" coil anyway.

What people (I think) want, is medium difficulty content. Something that offers a challenge compared to for example dungeons or ST, but isn't as hard as the current toughest content (FC and Savage Coil). The previous tier of Coil could have been just that, with higher item levels and maybe even echo bonus. But nerfing the mechanics makes it no more challenging than the standard level 50 grind content, which is what I think many are complaining about. There's already so much of easy level 50 content, a couple of instances of actually challenging content, but there's nothing in between, currently.

I haven't completed Savage Coil, and have in fact only entered one turn of it, but I think offering it as an alternative for unnerfed Coil 2 is simply ridiculous, and I think everyone who have tried both of them knows it.

[Snugglebutt]

However, you now have a huge gap in difficulty between savage and normal. A new player whose skill level falls in that middle area will do SCoB normal and think it's much too easy. Then they might try Savage SCoB and find it much too difficult. This would lead to the conclusion that the game is unbalanced and is what I mean by hurting the game.

No new player to second coil normal mode will think it is easy anymore so than new players first stepping into first coils or T5 unless they pay for a clear or get carried. Any new player running it will find it challenging especially if they do so in DF instead of PF but the scaling of difficulty is not really that much different than before. They also cannot try savage coil until they cleared normal which includes T9 and that I believe only has a 10% echo buff. However even if they cannot get past the hurdle of T9 now much like some people struggle with T5, the previous 6-8 did not change how hard T9 was even prior to the nerf so they would be as stuck now as they were before and not more so.

All this change really does in terms of impact on the player base is moved the hurdle further up the food chain after this content had been out almost a year plus new more difficult content was added on top of it, allowing more people to get past this old content and experience it fully while at same time does not detract from the amount of content that offers up the biggest challenge as they added new raids since original second coil came out that fills that gap which the elitists and hardcore desire. So he hardcore do not lose out because of this, newer hard content has been added and released since this one came out around 9 months ago which caters to their tastes.

The hardcore however are only a microscopic amount of the player base in the game so SE has to cater to more than just them. Changing very old content to allow people to catch up or progress the story while at same time creating new harder content for the hardcore is how they have always done it and will continue to do it because quite frankly that is how it should be done. Second coil original is just as challenging as want it to be if you so chose, stop going in with gear far surpassing its ilvl requirement, mix up your group composition or run it with people outside your static and the people who farm it in their over-geared characters and statics will still find it potentially challenging if do such things.

[RakaMaimhov]

How is this fun? .

Cool, now people who just wanted to do these raids for the storyline can enjoy them instead of having to experience it vicariously through You Tube.

Stop your whining, everyone. These fights have been out for months and they are old. People had their time to enjoy them. Let the scrubs watch their cutscenes while you move on to final coil.

I'm really starting to think a lot of you complain just for the sake of complaining.

Also, everyone KNEW these changes were coming, so why are you whining about them?

(Oh right, because by making 2nd coil easier to pass, it takes away the profit dividends for the people selling coil runs to other players! DUH! You people are so sickeningly transparent in your motives, you should all take a writing class or two so you can learn how to dissemble better in your posts.)

[Kiara]

"My coil" "My raids" "I'm hardcore" lmao, you peeps crack me up. You don't own content, SE does - so none of it is yours or 'exclusively' belonging to you. They can do w/e they want with it. This is an MMO, things evolve, things change, deal with it. Plus this a giant overreaction to its truest form. People said T5 was gonna be "1 shotted now in DF" and we know that's not the case at all, there is still many people who haven't even cleared T5 and when they do clear it, its not by DF, but still in the traditional PF or FC group. Second coil will still be challenging to the average player who's just trying to advance through the story and not interested in HA gear because showing off his e-peen is not important to him.

I'm not a huge fan of instant kill mechanics in the first place. I think they should be punishing, but not crippling.

At least I feel that way about instant kills in non-endgame fights. In the true badass boss fights at the ends of coils or tops of towers or whatever, yes. Instant kill mechanics. The bosses leading up to those badass fights should have lower-level versions of those mechanics that are less punishing, in order to prep you for the instant-kills in the final bosses.

Well said.

As someone who's cleared Second Coil of Bahamut before this Echo Buff, I agree.

* Second Coil had an overuse of One-Shot Death / Instant Kill mechanics that are just lazy design.

Make any mistake and deviate from the way we wanted you to run our "Team Jump Rope"? INSTANT DEATH.

Which usually meant bringing down the whole raid and starting from the top. Joy.

Imagine joining a random Duty Finder with 7 complete strangers who are new, with No Voice Chat, and trying to get through the Original Turn 6:

* Rafflesia's Devour: Everyone except the person with the Yellow Mark needs to get behind the Boss. The Yellow Mark can stand in a *Damaging Thorny Area* to NOT get eaten (as if that was intuitive), or good luck trying to learn Line-Of-Sight Run Through without watching a Video Guide.

* Blighted Bouquet: The trick is to STOP and do nothing. Unique, but again, imagine 8 strangers who are new, learning that mechanic without having watched a video guide. The amount of Instant Deaths / Wipes to that alone in DF would've been ridiculous.

* Honey Mark / Bee: "Oh look there's a Bee." Having 8 strangers learn to kill it, but THEN the person who's Honey Marked has to learn / figure out they NEED to be *eaten* or else the Bees will respawn forever. Ridiculous and obscure.

* Removing the Bee Respawn if the Honey Mark is still on for Final Phase: This was a fantastic change. Even Pre-Nerf, if your DPS was too good, you pushed Final Phase before getting eaten, it meant you got a Respawning Bee forever (unless you learned to KILL YOURSELF). So you had to stop DPS and wait for another Devour before moving to the next phase of this Scripted Fight. Terrible design / flawed gating.

* Dark Matter Slugs and Slimes: Again, with random DF parties learning this fight. "Oh look, Slimes." They attack them. INSTANT DEATH. Having 8 strangers figure out you need to damage SLUGS and then they will crawl along and eat the Slimes and THEN you you kill the Slugs...

Or you left some of the Honey Slimes alive they'll just add stacks and stacks and 10 Stacks = Full Party Wipe. Instant Death.


There were some obscure, odd mechanics in this fight to begin with. Of course it's hella easy now that we know it, but consider it from the standpoint of Duty Finder strangers, *and* players not as hardcore (or even hardcore, but doing it with 7 random people).

It would've been better game design to have LESS One-Shot / Instant Death Mechanics in general, and have challenging fights that allow players to *react* to a situation and see if they can apply *how well they play their job* (as a Monk, as a Dragoon, as a Healer, as a Tank etc.), instead of just doing what Mr. D wanted for a "Team Jump Rope" / Dance Dance Revolution simulation.

And as others have said, they nerfed Second Coil of Bahamut the day Final Coil and Poetics Gear was introduced (higher iLevel, etc.).

And if you all think about it, ALL of this is going to be worthless in about 6 months:

3.0 Heavensward with LEVEL CAP INCREASE, and far more powerful gear / iLevel / Challenges. All of this gear in this patch (in this endless Gear Grind) is already "dated." Worthless again in 6 months.

So kudos to Yoshi P and the Combat Team for the updates for Second Coil to make it more accessible to more players in general.


Here's to hoping they make future "End Game" with Less Instant-Kill / One Shot Deaths, and MORE about challenging you to play your Job in better ways. Less Team Jump Rope / Gimmicks please.

[Coldbrand]

They should lobotomize all the MTG players so the casuals can have fun once Triple Triad comes out. It's only fair we've been doing content for two decades.

[RakaMaimhov]

I actually have a legitimate concern that making mechanical changes of this nature could be hurting the longevity of the game much more than helping it.

snip

I hope the devs pick up on this imbalance and are able to find a more reasonable solution which will not take away but rather add to the game.

I'd like to see them implement the regular version of 2nd coil with echo (optional) as well as nerf mode. That way there are easy, regular, and brutal modes to play. I don't see why that would be so difficult to do at all.

[StouterTaru]

How bout this, if you want it to be just as hard as it was (very likely even harder), just do it solo in duty finder. I guarantee it will be 10x more difficult with a PUG than you had it in static.

The issue with not nerfing it is that it's old content, blocking casual and newer players, with no incentive for the hardcore to assist them. Remember Titan HM before trial roulette? Who wants to spend an hour helping noobs attempt to get their relic only to fail repeatedly, or finally make it and get that whopping 10 tomes?

There's two options for keeping the game as a whole going, nerf old content or keep hardcore gamers playing the same old content for a year. Which one would you bitch about less?

[Akuryu]

This is how all MMOs work. If they don't nerf the mechanics directly, they do it though level cap increases and/or new gear.

SCoB was nerfed in 2.3. Starting in 2.3 you could get 110 gear outside of SCoB, and you had groups going in there already full 110. That was a nerf. It was nerfed again in 2.4 with the addition of 120 gear. Those turns were never designed to be run with such high level gear.

Want to talk about the ultimate nerf? In 6 months we'll have an expansion, and a level cap of 60. Nobody will be doing coil anymore. All 13 turns - completely irrelevant. Dead content. Only run for glamour or to see the story.

Everyone likes throwing FFXI around like it's something special. Do you know how many times CoP got nerfed? All those HMNs you needed 60 people to kill can be soloed now. Know how many people run sky and sea content today? Not many. All those fond memories you have of dynamis? Completely irrelevant.

This is how MMOs are. They evolve and change over time. You show me a MMO where the same content stayed hard forever, and I'll show you a dead game.

[Coldbrand]

This is how all MMOs work. If they don't nerf the mechanics directly, they do it though level cap increases and/or new gear.

SCoB was nerfed in 2.3. Starting in 2.3 you could get 110 gear outside of SCoB, and you had groups going in there already full 110. That was a nerf. It was nerfed again in 2.4 with the addition of 120 gear. Those turns were never designed to be run with such high level gear.

Highly debatable. Speeding up the phase transitions frequently makes the fights more difficult than easy. Apart from the Deathdealers as long as you handled the mechanics correctly (which no longer exist, the entire challenge) then the actual process of fighting the monsters wasn't really particularly threatening. Similar to Ramuh. Now there is no T7.

[Prototype909]

Here's to hoping they make future "End Game" with Less Instant-Kill / One Shot Deaths, and MORE about challenging you to play your Job in better ways. Less Team Jump Rope / Gimmicks please.

The game is already built this way to an extent. The expectation is that because you -should- know how to play your job in these instances that the only way to make the fights hard is with team jump rope, ie playing your job near optimally is expected and so instant death mechanics are the only way to actually have a "fight" - otherwise everything just becomes a variation of tank and spank and DPS checks with nothing in-between. Like if T8 was literally just a bunch of big hits from the boss and an enrage timer at the end without towers, mines, ballistic missiles, etc.