Positionals: Ninja and Monk - Food for thought.

[Saigwa]

So I ran a duty finder, to be brought into a random pt with a ninja and monk. As I'm doing my tank thing, I see the monk all over the place movin from back to side of the boss, while the ninja is more, or less, dpsing with little movement aside from necessary.
Then I questioned a bit of logic, as i'm sure many others have: Why is it that the rogue/ninja class has little to no positional requirements, whereas the pug/monk class relies ever so strongly on positionals?

When I think of a rogue/ninja, I think of assassination-type attacks.... stereotypically, assassinations would be done in such a manner that the target would not expect or see it. But the ninja can maximize it's dps to the fullest, even while attacking a target in the face.

Monks, which are stereotypically martial artists, have such positional requirements that if not followed correctly, dps is a poor minimum. More or less, Monks DEPEND on positions. Now, when I watch these good ol kung-fu movies, I don't see bruce lee attacking people only from the back or side like a sneaky little assassin. No, most movies show martial artists going head in, attacking their foes face to face.

Yes, Monks were in the game first before ninjas might have even be thought of, but I find it silly how ninja, a class stereotyped to be sneaky, has no positional requirements to boost dps except for trick attack which isn't even from the enemy's blind spot.

I do not play a monk or a ninja, so it would be interesting to see what other's think about this topic.

TLDR: Ninja and Monk seem to have a role reversal when it boils down to positionals requirements to output maximum dps.

[Jamez82]

Ninja gocuses on other things than positional requirements.

Between balancing mundras and dots/debuffs I guess they figured adding in to heavy of a positional requirement would be over-taxing on some peoples multi-tasking ability.

I say this not knowing much about monks though. Not really sure what they have to manage. So it's only just a guess.

[RiceisNice]

Ninja gocuses on other things than positional requirements.

Between balancing mundras and dots/debuffs I guess they figured adding in to heavy of a positional requirement would be over-taxing on some peoples multi-tasking ability.

I say this not knowing much about monks though. Not really sure what they have to manage. So it's only just a guess.

Would make sense if ninjas didn't have the same amount of DoTs as monks, even sharing the aspect of one them being behind a combo requirement. Even calling ninjitsu "complex" is a farshot because the only thing that matters is getting the last mudra correct with no repeats (Huton is any 3-mudra combination with ten being the last and, for example)

[Shori]

monks get DoTs and debuffs/buffs too
I too woulda thought ninjas to have to move more, but I guess that comes into play more when solo as you get to sneak up and attack from the front, but rather redundant skills when in party.

[Adrian74]

Hi, user of both jobs.... Previous to ninja... Monk was my favorite DPS, exactly because that, you could see a lot of LAZY monks around (I still yet seeing them, even in the latest dungeons....) TOTALLY IGNORING the positional strikes.... What I loved so much of MNK was the style of having to deal damage by moving and working it a lot, as well as maintaining the greased lightning all you can (Often cutted if the tank doesn't know how to support your greased lightning, basically, tanks running away when monsters are in the minimal HP, just so you follow and keep hitting until reaching next group and... Voila, you still having three stacks of greased lightning... [What I don't understand is why some tanks do this when I'm with ninja]).

Since ninja came, it became quickly my main, because I like its style, I like the fact it seems it has two damn lightsabers, I like the concept, the quests that comes with it, the ninjutsu, everything... But, indeed I'd like, as said in one of my posts, to see more presence of positions in the future, making it even harder and harder to use.... (In my opinion, the harder and more complicated a job is to use, [but of course, for it, rewarding] the more I like it.)

I hope that if they have to nerf ninja it'd be by adding positional requirements, just not reducing base potency of the skills in a lazy way... Seriously, it was a sad surprise when I noticed that dancing edge was applied even if I failed because sudden movements of the monster, then I noticed it, an error in the skill text... Arg

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah, this one really bothers me too. Conceptually it just doesn't make any sense.

That being said... quite frankly I think positionals should just go away completely with exception of Sneak Attack/Trick Attack because they make no sense whatsoever. They're just... dumb. They might give players more things to do in combat but thematically there is really no reason whatsoever for a lancer or pugilist to be attacking from behind.

Lancers are particularly bad in this regard because they gate entire skill chains behind those positional attacks, which is absurd on its face. Besides the fact that it's a heavier penalty than any other DPS class suffers for not meeting a single easily-missed requirement (just need the boss to turn around at the wrong time), it's just... why? What were you thinking? How does any of this make any sense to begin with?!

So I will say right here that the primary reason I do not play DRG or MNK regularly despite capping them both and going through the trouble of getting their AF+1 and relic weapons is because of this absolute nonsense. It just... it's not fun and it's just plain dumb. Also makes soloing with MNK an absolutely awful affair, which is... yeah, why? Just... why?

[Lexia]

No thanks, lets not make ninja into a mnk wannabe

[Kuroyasha]

So I ran a duty finder, to be brought into a random pt with a ninja and monk. As I'm doing my tank thing, I see the monk all over the place movin from back to side of the boss, while the ninja is more, or less, dpsing with little movement aside from necessary.
Then I questioned a bit of logic, as i'm sure many others have: Why is it that the rogue/ninja class has little to no positional requirements, whereas the pug/monk class relies ever so strongly on positionals?

Good monks don't have to move a lot either. If you're with a good monk it'll look like they're not even moving correctly if you've never played monk at high level(or if you've only been with okay monks). Why? b/c they stay at the point between flank and rear and scoot barely a cm to activate positional requirement. Gotta dodge? They'll just move to the other side and do the same thing.

As for the other stuff. Well.. imo balance/variety...unless people just want all the melee classes to play the same, but then there would be no point in even having multiple melee classes in the first place.

[Akamu_Aniketos]

Now, when I watch these good ol kung-fu movies, I don't see bruce lee attacking people only from the back or side like a sneaky little assassin. No, most movies show martial artists going head in, attacking their foes face to face.

I made a thread on the weak frontal power of Monks, and ranted in another thread about the positional requirements. It NEVER made sense for me as a Monk to play like a thief, I stopped playing for 8 months because of the not so fun play-style. I really want SE to do something about this because right now we have a thief/assassin in Monk clothing.

[Stihllodeing]

Opening post

Your logic is incontrovertible. I never thought about it, and now I will never forget. Monk and Ninja will always be looked at as flawed in my mind. Every time I see them in a group now, I will think to myself, "Man that's backasswards".

+1

I don't care though, I'm still gonna wreck things leveling my monk