Carraway's Guide to the New Archer: 1.18 and Beyond

[Aratharn]

I just hope I havent wasted my points on something that is gona b blown out the water next update T_T

Won't have to wait til next update, Ifrit's Bow has been out since 1.19! :3

[Actus]

I disagree with this. This would be sound advice if BfB added a flat amount of damage (e.g. +50 damage to Light Shot is no better than +50 damage to Wide Volley), but it doesn't; like most of these kinds of buffs, BfB affects a multiplier. Therefore, you're better off adding attack power to your hardest-single-hitting attack (usually Wide Volley unless you can't AoE, then probably Bloodletter) rather than a lighter-hitting attack.

Since #s don't lie: (Tested on 37-39 mobs since thats what I was farming at the time) (Sample size = 30)

Light Shot sample average damage was 545.
Light Shot + BfB sample average damage was 688.

An average damage increase was 145 or 21%.

Heavy Shot sample average damage was 848.
Heavy Shot + BfB sample average damage was 1025.

An average damage increase of 177 or 17%.

Wide Volley sample average damage was 1299.
Wide Volley + BfB sample average damage was 1352.

An average damage increase of 53 or 4%.

Considering that Heavy Shot does on average 36% more damage than Light Shot, & that Wide Volley does 55% more damage than Light Shot; if Blood for Blood were a % modifier, the increase in average damage would be within a small deviation of a set percentage. Since however, the average damage increase drops with the more damage done, we can deduce that BfB does indeed only give a certain fixed damage bonus to abilities.

TL;DR: Carraway's earlier post is correct.

[Spider-Dan]

Actus, your own test disproves Carraway's claim. If BfB adds a fixed amount of damage to any attack (as Carraway said), why did it add ~150 to LS but only ~50 to WV in your test? It should have added either 50 to both or 150 to both. (I'm willing to dismiss the difference in BfB increase between LS and HS in your test as sample size.) Were you AoEing with Wide Volley?

Anyway, I decided to run a small test, and I'll say that I omitted a key detail in my earlier post, which you'll see.

So I ran outside of Ul'dah and took a sample of 10 of each of the following:

Light Shot
Light Shot crit
BfB+Light Shot
BfB+Light Shot crit
Wide Volley
Wide Volley crit
BfB+Wide Volley
BfB+Wide Volley crit

There are a couple of potential criticisms I'll address beforehand. The first is the low sample size; that's a valid point, and if you honestly think more trials will change the results, fair enough. The second (which Penguin already mentioned) is LV1 mobs; the way I see it, if you're trying to determine whether an ability gives a fixed damage increase or affects a multiplier, the higher the damage, the easier it is to see. I don't see a problem with LV1 mobs for purposes of this discussion.

So here are the averages:

LS: 871.1
LS crit: 1621.0
BfB+LS: 2020.8 (+1149.7 over LS)
BfB+LS crit: 3596.1 (+1975.1 over LS crit)

WV: 5445.8
WV crit: 9310.9
BfB+WV: 6593.2 (+1147.4 over WV)
BfB+WV crit: 9999 (I didn't do 10 of these because it was obviously hitting the cap)

So first off, it does seem reasonable to conclude that BfB bonus damage (by itself) is, indeed, fixed (~1150 in this case). Point taken. However, the reason why I made the original post in the first place is because when I originally tested this, at some point I was also testing BfB+Blindside (which I use in real fights) and I noticed that BfB's damage increase was definitely not fixed (though I'm not sure why I didn't put two and two together on crit vs. non-crit). I do also vaguely recall that when I did my original testing, I was using gear that was not capping out BfB+WV crits... but this particular test is inconclusive in that regard, so I'll leave that on the table for now.

So it seems clear that you definitely want to use BfB with Blindside (if you have it), because BfB's bonus damage is increased by a crit. And (for obvious reasons) it's better to use Blindside on harder-hitting attacks, as that damage increase is not fixed. Therefore, optimally you should use BfB and Blindside together on Wide Volley, or your next hardest-hitting attack.

[Kaeko]

Looking at your #s Dan, it seems like the BfB damage is actually fixed... it's just that it is applied before the critical damage modifier (+53-56% in your test scenario). So when you say BfB damage increased, it's increased by the crit modifier. But it doesn't change the fact that it seems to have a semi-fixed property on normal shots.

[Spider-Dan]

Right, but at the end of the day, BfB net damage bonus is increased by crits, and crits affect heavy hitters more, so you should use BfB+Blindside on your heavy hitters.

Or, put another way:

- if you have Blindside equipped, you should use BfB with it
- when you have BfB+BS active, you should use the hardest hitting attack you have available

If BfB's damage bonus was truly fixed (unaffected by crit), then I grant that it wouldn't matter if you used it with BS or not.

[NoctisUmbra]

Do you expect to be getting consistent hits from behind enemies, especially with Wide Volley? That is what's necessary to receive the Blindside damage bonus after all.

[Actus]

No Spider-dan. You are wrong yet still.

The "Average" is merely a central indicator to what damage has been done so that the reader can readily infer about a whole sample set. I have no patience to do the calculations for each data point in my sample set (180 multi-stage equations... no thanks). Your interpretation of my data neglects the basic deviation of all attacks in the sample set.

The deviation in damage done between LS, HS, & WV is exponential in that HS has a higher deviation than LS, and WV is higher than HS. If a variable (our 150 damage estimate) is added to a small number (Light Shot) with a small deviation value, the % increase will be noticeable and easy to calculate. When the sample points are much higher in damage and have a much higher deviation rate, the % increase and how easy it is to infer the change is much harder to notice due to the large deviation value.

As the evidence suggests from my testing from last night, the theory that BfB is a set damage increase, is the most credible conclusion that can be taken.



Edit: Also, any real test would exclude outlying sample points (Critical Hits) since they will skew the average and the standard deviation of the results.

[Spider-Dan]

I already conceded that BfB is fixed damage on non-critical hits.

The fact remains that BfB adds more damage to a critical hit than it does to a non-crit. Given that an ability that forces a crit is available, and that said ability has the same recast as BfB (on ARC), it makes sense to use the two together.

If you're honestly saying that real tests exclude critical hits, then I guess you would have to conclude that Blindside is a completely useless ability? I'm not sure how to respond to that.

The real question here should be, which is most effective?

a) using BfB+BS the moment they are available, even if your next attack is Light Shot
b) saving BfB+BS for whatever your next WS is (e.g. Heavy Shot)
c) saving BfB+BS for your next heavy hitter (Wide Volley or Bloodletter)

[NoctisUmbra]

I already conceded that BfB is fixed damage on non-critical hits.

The fact remains that BfB adds more damage to a critical hit than it does to a non-crit. Given that an ability that forces a crit is available, and that said ability has the same recast as BfB (on ARC), it makes sense to use the two together.

If you're honestly saying that real tests exclude critical hits, then I guess you would have to conclude that Blindside is a completely useless ability? I'm not sure how to respond to that.

Blindside forces a crit on a rear hit. Your suggestion of pairing it with an AoE like Wide Volley makes little sense.

That being said, it gives me a reason to test BfB + Blindside on PGL.

[Spider-Dan]

Blindside forces a crit on a rear hit. Your suggestion of pairing it with an AoE like Wide Volley makes little sense.

Why does it make any less sense than pairing it with Bloodletter? Neither BfB nor BS will apply to any target but the one you fire WV at. If you fire BS+BfB+WV at a target from behind, it's a crit on that target.

Even on a single target, WV will do more burst damage than any ARC WS but QN. It's not like it's only good for AoE.